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On Mon, 2003-09-29 at 16:09, Terence McCarthy wrote: > On 29 Sep 2003 16:33:54 +0100 > Paul M <tallpaul@xxxxxxx> wrote: > > > Make me wonder if it would be possible to get ECDL Accreditation for > > courseware developed and released under an open source like model. > > > > I would be interested in collaborating on an ECDL(Linux) project. I can if you wish > re-contact my original source to see what the state of play is now. > Most of the material I could find on the ECDL website seems to be about accrediting testing centres rather than courses, it seems that the assumption that you accredit as a training centre then try to get your course material accredited. Of course one of the principal reasons for adopting a Free Software type model for development is precisely that it would be non-proprietary i.e not tied to one business and could enjoy all the benefits of the Free Software model - reuse, feedback, open development etc. Regardless of any obstacles to accreditation I do think that the ECDL is a useful starting point for development. 1. Because creating an ECDL-compliant courseware would be extremely useful in convincing people that Linux is useful in everyday computing. 2. Because it forms an agreed upon standard of the basic computing skills need to know and would thus provide a useful structure to be built upon (regardless of the final outcome). That said the ECDL not be the be all and end all - just a useful starting off point. If I have any criticism it would be that the ECDL is business orientated. While I recognise that this does constitute the majority of peoples computer use, there are others. My own background is in the voluntary sector/community & political activism/the arts - and as such reflects a different set of needs. This is not to argue against the precepts of the ECDL rather to plead for plurality. But as I said I think its a useful starting point that can be built on, and would certainly be good to concentrate on in the first instance. My experience teaching on the Aktivix weekend was instructive in this regard. It was extremely interesting to be involved in a purely Linux focused event where at least half of the participants, had little to no knowledge of linux but a strong desire to use it. I came away convinced that there is an audience for Linux that is not being addressed, not necessarily through the fault of the community itself. A number of strong points did emerge, however on how this can be tackled. The first is a general issue for existing Linux users, the second relevant to the points under discussion. One thing that the non-experienced users repeatedly said, is how grateful they were to come across techies who were approachable as people - time and again people would say things like how grateful they were that they felt like they could ask (potentially) stupid questions and not be condescended to. (the point being that they weren't often if sure if they were stupid but had been afraid to ask). This is not a new point, and I'm going to hold up my hands at this point as guilty of condescension, but it good to hear it straight form the horses mouth as it were. It certainly provoked me to think a lot and to consider that this is an area where non-programmers have potential a vast amount to contribute, if only to act as a shield for those whose time might be better spent writing software. A related, if potentially controversial point, but one which I feel obliged to make, is the, at times, appalling levels levels of sexism, typified by one participant as the "hyper-masculinised" culture (to qoute "if you can't understand the man pages you're not smart enough" that can predominate. This *does* put a lot of people off - including men, never mind women, and has certainly led me to question my own involvement at times. I realise this is subsidiary to the points and I certainly am *not* accusing anyone here (if you are guilty I will credit you with the intelligence to figure it out for yourself) but I did come away with both a personal determination to not to igonre sexism and a burning desire to share the lessons I felt I learnt, if only because I have came to realise that through using free software it has become something I do care about. To return to a point more salient to the discussion... The other major point was the clear(someone said "desperate" need for accessible documentation as someone put it "if you can understand the man pages you don't need them" ( this from someone who admins a heavily used production server). This is *not* a criticism of the quality of existing documentation - man pages are fine for what they do - but the recognition of a separate need. To my mind the way to make documentation accessible is to make it structured and conceptual - I will return to this below because the point Adrian makes is highly salient. On Mon, 2003-09-29 at 20:15, Adrian Midgley wrote: > > I believe it would be essential to indicate in them that other GUIs on > other operating systems have variations, and concentrate on the underlying > principles - principles on a practical level I mean - making reference to > the Mac and to MS windows. "Outlook is rather like Evolution, but has > the following significant differences". This is absolutely my experience with teaching (absolute) beginners. If you show someone how to save a word(-processing) document this will come back to you to learn how to save a spreadsheet. If you teach someone the concept of saving and that you do it through the file menu (as well as the concept of a menu) they will learn it for themselves. Both my own experience of learning myself and my experience of teaching others has taught me that this is the only way to properly teach IT. I have lost times of the number of times I have thrown (generally over-sized and bloated) so called manuals and teach yourself books at the wall in frustration when I was trying to teach myself programming. Always because it assumed it could be taught mechanically without explaining why. Contrast this with the Learning Perl - the first chapter is dedicated exactly to teaching underlying principles by practical example - I never got much beyond this chapter because I didn't need to - having grasped the basic concepts (variables, control structures, functions) I could treat the rest of the book as a reference manual and actually produce something I found useful. > Whether we are yet at the point where there is a good business in it I am > less sanguine. Maybe not but I tempted to say here "build it and they will come" - there is a need for this stuff and for my self at least am prepared to work out the rest later. - though I am in the fortunate position of needing little and desiring not much more. A major part of my life plan at the moment is to move into Adult Education and to dedicate some time to Linux Advocacy in a community setting through this and I am fortunate that I am in a position where I think I may be able to create a situation in which I can do this. Its not going to make me rich (its going to keep me poor) but thats never been my aim. <takes a deep breath/> So given there's a definite interest where do we go from here? Things that occur to me include 1. Infrastucture to co-ordinate things (mailing list maybe - wiki space to put stuff on) 2. Basic structure (go through ECDL syllabus, divide it up, write Linux based answers so we have an idea of what we need?) 3. Deciding on scope and focus. 4. Maybe getting others involved. Any other ideas? Paul M -- The Mailing List for the Devon & Cornwall LUG Mail majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxxx with "unsubscribe list" in the message body to unsubscribe.