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Re: [LUG] OT: Spelling religious war flamebait

 

On 10/12/12 13:44, tom wrote:
> On 10/12/12 13:06, paul sutton wrote:
>> On 10/12/12 12:43, Julian Hall wrote:
>>>   On 10/12/2012 11:06, paul sutton wrote:
>>>> On 10/12/12 10:22, tom wrote:
>>>>> On 10/12/12 09:22, Philip Hudson wrote:
>>>>>> On 10 Dec, 2012, at 8:55 am, tom wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Using mercan spelling makes as much sense as using 3 for pi. It
>>>>>>> might be 'easier' but achieves nothing of use to anyone.
>>>>>> Go on, just take a deep breath and let go of those silly UK
>>>>>> spellings. You can do it. Accept that American spellings are
>>>>>> phonetically truer, truer to Latin and Greek originals, shorter,
>>>>>> more
>>>>>> consistent, easier to learn and remember, and altogether utterly and
>>>>>> completely superior. You're a logical, reasoning, rational sort of
>>>>>> chap, a global cybernaut, way beyond petty prejudice and chauvinism.
>>>>>>
>>>> compare Sulphur (uk) to Sulfur,  the latter is now the accepted
>>>> international spelling.  It makes more sense,   This was a decision
>>>> made
>>>> by the international chemistry people not us simply adopting American
>>>> spellings.
>>>>
>>>> Oddly employers or potential employers here seem to think its ok to
>>>> write Dear Paul on official correspondence,  despite the fact I use
>>>> proper salutations.    Such as Dear Mr, Mrs, Ms, Miss.  To me what
>>>> I use
>>>> is more professional,  and if I write to you like that you should
>>>> write
>>>> back (just because I am using e-mail does not mean that e-mail
>>>> can't be
>>>> made formal / informal.
>>>>
>>>> I have had letters from the US that use the salutation / surname
>>>> format,  so we are not getting this casual unprofessional attitude
>>>> from
>>>> the USA.
>>>>
>>>> You can't tell me times are changing as if you get official
>>>> correspondence from the tax office, NHS et al, they do it
>>>> properly.  If
>>>> you expect this from school leavers it may help if the teachers did it
>>>> properly.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Paul
>>> When I worked for ISP Tech Support my initial Customer Service
>>> training (such as it was) boiled down to 'Be polite and address the
>>> customer as Sir or Madam' [The latter used less as occasionally ladies
>>> tend to get a bit stroppy if you call them Madam for some reason ;)]
>>> or Title/Surname e.g. Mr Smith.  However we provided outsourced
>>> support to various ISPs in a 'Virtual ISP' or V-ISP callcentre where I
>>> worked.  A couple of years later one of our (American) Corporate
>>> clients decided our salutation should be by the customer's first
>>> name.  That went totally against my training, and my instincts as IMHO
>>> it does not convey the proper respect for a customer,
>> I agree
>>> and I never did it; the only caveat being if it was a customer I had
>>> been dealing with for some time who made the offer first.
>> Well if you have the OK from the customer or client then this then
>> changes things but then makes thinks awkward if you ever have to deal
>> with serious issues.
>>
>>
>>> Brief segue. On one occasion I asked for the postcode and it brought
>>> up an account for a customer who I suspect had Polish or at elast East
>>> European heritage judging by the name.  Either way he heard the pause
>>> as I was about to attempt his name and in a kind tone said 'Call me
>>> Len'.
>>>
>>> One of my colleagues had a fairly successful half-way option between
>>> first name and title/surname of saying 'Good morning John.. do you
>>> mind if I call you John?'  Only once did I hear him revert to 'Mr' as
>>> the customer evidently did mind in that case.
>>>
>>> It's a slippery slope though because soon after I heard technicians
>>> address customers as 'mate', at which point I lost my temper and
>>> pointed out to the other seniors that while one client may have said
>>> they wanted us to use first names, 'Mate' was well out or order and
>>> needed curbing ASAP.
>>>
>>> Julian
>>>
>> I agree,  this happens in shops,  why? I don't even know you, or your
>> name so how are we mates,  another annoyance is when the people at tills
>> decide to carry on a conversation with a collague or another customer
>> and casually serve me,  very rude and if I was the manger this would
>> result in  dismissal or certainly a warning,   part of your job
>> description / training however would be to make it clear how to treat
>> customers,  so if any disciplinary procedures are carried out it is
>> because you have breached rules you know about.
>>
>> In the after school club we are on first name terms so the children can
>> call us by our first names, however if I worked in a classroom then
>> clearly it would be on a surname basis (or at least I hope so)  or at
>> least calling staff sir or miss.
>>
>> It's a respect issue.
>>
>> Paul
>>
> Its also regional - oop north in shops you were always  asked 'can I
> help you love'. In London the staff grunted and vaulted over the
> counter to get away when approached.
> Tom te tom te tom
>
And in the East Midlands they address you as "duck" or "me ducks" - even
male to male which can be really disconcerting!

I guess that human language (English in particular) is always evolving,
and absorbing different vocabulary and grammatical rules. American
English diverged from English English in Tudor times, but both are very
different from (to?) early English (ever tried reading Chaucer in the
original?). I used to think that computer language was much more
controlled, but then there was Python and 2.x and 3.x.

>From a philosophical point of view, evolution of language is only a
problem if it obscures meaning. The classic example is the use of the
word jealous to mean envious, which then requires a new word
"possessive" to mean the same as jealous used to. On the other hand, the
use of French world wide appears to be on the decline in areas where the
Acadamie Francais has fossilised the language.

I used to work for a company which had most of it's manufacturing plants
in the US. We put together an English to American dictionary and then
took great delight in cramming as many words with different meanings (or
no American equivalent at all - e.g. "fortnight") as possible. The
sulfer, sulpher point is interesting. IUPAC agreed that the name of
element 41 is niobium, but Americans still insist on calling it
columbium, so they are obviously only happy to standardise (standardize)
if it is on their terms.

The only serious problem was that we all had to use American planners
(in the days of paper planners), but our French plants used European
ones. American weeks start on a different day (Monday) to Europe
(Sunday), so we occasionally had different week numbers depending on
what day 1st January was on, which played havoc with deliveries. We
could then "pass the buck" back to the Americans to sort out though.

Phil

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