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On 22/11/10 10:34, Philip Whateley wrote:
Sorry - I didn't intend to have a go at you. I interpreted what you said earlier as that you were getting paper data taken from someone elses computer system. However back to the data - at no time should it go near csv - you should be able to put it straight into a database from paper as bland table data which can then be transformed directly (or indirectly) into the format you need and then sucked into R (or anything else) at will. There should be no significant capital requirements for looking at/entering data - just bad management of the same. If a pen can work on a bit of paper in the environment then a cheap terminal can be used. OK I dont know quite what environment and what your requirements are but just because some con artist has sold them a useless IT solution (MS?) doesn't mean that an IT solution is not possible. I've worked in companies where 25 simple wyse terminals have been replaced with 25 case hardened windows machines and a lot of money pissed up the wall because - like your last para they mistakenly assumed that the organisation is not responsible for the data. It is - its just a question of where you put up bureaucratic barriers: you can analyse the data because you don't have to jump through ill placed hoops - neither should the operators. You presumably get them to provide you with data in a way which is mutually convenient - that always a good thing to do and is often a lot easier than you'd think.On Mon, 2010-11-22 at 07:48 +0000, tom wrote:On 21/11/10 22:49, Tom Brough wrote: .....Having said all that it would be really nice to see a good csv / xml editor in open source. Ah if only my programming skills were 100% better than they are now :-( Tom.If people would adopt a data centric approach - managing the data they are really concerned with and not spreading it around piecemeal in 'documents' then there would be no need for a good csv/xml editor. As you wrote in the parent post it is really sad, really really sad that we even have to contemplate doing these things. Tom te tom te tomWell - in general terms I think you are right, but in this specific instance, most of the data is collected on paper for very good reasons. -The original charts are and should be owned by shop floor problem solvers, who do not have access to computers because the environment is hot, humid, and full of stray high EMF interference. -The charts are used for problem solving on the shop floor, and need to be available to be carried from potential problem to potential problem. -Operators also need to make notes on the charts, often in the form of freehand sketches, schematics etc. -The charts need to be posted in a form where they are always visible and accessible. My role is in training the operators and setting up the charts in the first place. The main reason for getting the data into R/Mondrian/gGobbi etc. is so I can perform additional analysis. I'm afraid that one of the first pieces of advice I give when called in to see why a company is not making improvements as a result of spending several hundred thousand pounds on shiny new computer equipment, is that they need to get away from a data-centric approach and focus on problem solving by doing the work on paper. Working on paper also means that the problem can often be solved in less than 5 minutes, instead of the months it would take to perform systems analysis, requirements definition, capital justification, tender for hardware, tender for software etc. etc. etc. to solve a single problem which will often be a different problem when the (by now) obsolete system is in place. I'm sure that there are many instances where your "moan" is justified, but in this instance the people responsible for managing the data need to be the operators, not the organisation. So managing the data they are concerned with actually means spreading it around piecemeal. Phil
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