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http://karoshi.linuxgfx.co.uk/ -- Steve Lee OSS Watch - supporting open source in education and research http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk 2009/4/28 Gordon Henderson <gordon+dcglug@xxxxxxxxxx>: > On Tue, 28 Apr 2009, Richard Brown wrote: > >> Hi Guys >> >> I had a chat with a school head yesterday who is once again investing >> in RM technology. I have tried to persuade her otherwise but her >> reasons cannot be disputed with. Namely that the support is full. If >> it breaks down someone comes and fixes it. If it needs updating the >> computer automatically updates. She doesn't have to do anything to the >> server - it just works. >> >> So can we respond to this please? Firstly is it possible to create a >> server that updates itself? Secondly, is there anyway we can encourage >> her to look at different systems? Any thoughts would be welcome - >> thanks. > > Firstly, I'm not offering to do this - it's not my line of business, nor > it it something I wish to get into. > > (Also looking back on what I've typed here today, it's a bit of a ranty > whinge!!!) > > However, I've built and maintained 100's of servers over the years - from > the inner sanctum of an ISP to live real-time VoIP to secure servers > locked away behind firewalls. And some even more secure not even connected > to the Internet (shock horror!) > > >From a server point of view - I don't have the OMG lets patch, update, > upgrade it every Tuesday mentality... I build servers for a purpose and > they (almost always) stay that way until they are retired or redeployed. > > I don't always chase the latest upgrades, etc. because the reality is, I > don't need to. I do evaluate their impact then make a decision though, and > update if required, but that's rare. Feel free to criticise me over this, > but that's the reality of the way I do things. I still have 2 servers > running Debian Woody which are live and connected to the Internet with no > firewalling other than what they provide for themselves. One has an uptime > of over 3 years. The other is a little over 2 years now. (It's now in it's > 4th year - was only rebooted to add more memory last time) > > Incidentally, over the years, I've never had an Internet facing server > compromised through any issues with Linux (*nix, etc.) or the system > software I've put on them (ie. LAMP). > > Wish I could say the same for the application software though - there have > been compromises, but they've been through poorly written PHP and Perl > application code - bulletin boards, phpnuke, and the like, and poor > passwords selected by the lusers )-: Stability issues? I've had hardware > fail... That's my main concern, but soak-test a server for 3 hours and > it'll run 3 days, test for 3 days and it'll run for 3 weeks, etc. You get > the picture. I soak-test all boxes for a week or more if I can before they > go out the door... (Unless they're Dells which suck too much juice which > have their final tests on a customers site!!!) > > > So what's a school server? > > For the admin department, probably nothing more than a file server - maybe > some "Intranet" type applications. It will be behind the school firewall, > so risk of external contact ought to be zero. It should be on a separate > LAN from the teaching network. (especially if it's holding financial and > maybe student details) so risk of attacks from within ought to be > minimal too. So patching, updating, etc. really ought not to be a > desperately high requirement. Even less so when we start with a known > robust platform (ie. Linux) > > So what I think I'm saying is that if patching, upgrading, etc. is your > main concern, then something is wrong, or people have gotten the patch > Tuesday mentality burned into their brains when it's really not needed at > all. > > So what's a school server and why is the head buying into RM? > > She's buying RM because it fits the purpose. RM have a lot of time and > money invested into schools, and rightly or wrongly, there seems little > choice right now. > > I'd suggest selling them "appliances". Sell them a "file server". Sell > them an "application server" or an Intranet server, and so on. (Actually, > sell them a Drobo if they want a file-server, as I suspect I'll point > punters down that route rather than build them a dedicated Linux box > again) > > You later wrote: > >> At the end of the day I'm wondering whether Linux is ready to tackle RM? > > Linux isn't the issue here, it's the applications. > > If you write the applications, offer them via a "black box" or "appliance" > type of service, complete with support, upgrades and maintenance, then > what it will boil down to is very probably price - not the buy-in price, > but the on-going price in terms of licenses, support, etc. > > First thing you need to do is find out what these applications are. > > I give my servers a 4-year life and expect them to be replaced during that > final 4th year. This can be stretched to 5 years if you really need it - > but it all depends on the applications that will need to be run in 4 years > time. > > I do know of one school who's gone partially open source - more on the > admin side of things though - they still have MS on the teaching side, > however the office, for the most part is Linux (diskless workstations too) > open office, firefox and so on. With one exception - the finance office > where they use XP and Sage, but at least the data is on a Linux server! > However they're an independent charity funded school, so probably have > more say in what goes on than a typical state school does... > > > Personally I think you'll hit a brick wall. (for now) Schools have been > dealing with this model for too long, so anything that doesn't fit the > model is viewed with high suspicion. I get this all the time with > telephone systems - corp-rat manglers have been so brainwashed into buying > feature licenses and expensive maintenance contracts for their phone > system, that when someone comes along and offers them a system with 10x > the functionality for 1/10th the price, they do not believe it would ever > work. (Or are embarased to admit this to their peers and managers!) > > Telling the IT dude of a 120-strong law-firm in Somerset that they could > buy one of my phone systems outright for 3 months worth of the 7-year > leasing deal they had just gotten themselves tied into was not a sensible > move, as I found out recently. Their loss. They'll come back in 5 years > time though. I can wait... And so should you. The geek will inherit, etc. > > Like MS, RM got in early and when there was little competition they got a > foot-hold and grew from there. Their time will come! If you want to beat > them, you need to provide a viable alternative - and not just to 1 or 2 > servers here and there - you need a total solution, maintenance, the lot. > > Gordon > > -- > The Mailing List for the Devon & Cornwall LUG > http://mailman.dclug.org.uk/listinfo/list > FAQ: http://www.dcglug.org.uk/linux_adm/list-faq.html > -- The Mailing List for the Devon & Cornwall LUG http://mailman.dclug.org.uk/listinfo/list FAQ: http://www.dcglug.org.uk/linux_adm/list-faq.html