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On Friday 05 January 2007 18:22, George Parker wrote: > Having followed this thread, and as a relative newcomer to Linux, sorry, > GNU Linux, I thought I would put in my 2 pennyworth. It doesn't matter to me what you call it! In general, the GNU/Linux operating systems are referred to as Linux by most people. > I have to say that if > I hadn't been around computing since 1980, I would have been a bit put off > asking for help by some of this thread. A touch of condescension here and > there with an assumption of quite a lot of knowledge in some of the > answers, albeit clarified in others. The base of this thread was > attracting people over from Windows to the brave new world and I think that > what actually came out would have put off a lot more than it gave comfort > to. > > > > IMHO the average person who has Windows on their computer is a pretty > sophisticated user. Some Windows users are indeed pretty clever people, but, because Windows is the OS which comes installed by default on virtually all PCs, the average must surely be somewhat less "geeky". The majority of people I know who use computers are fairly basic in their understanding of computing in general - although there are some who are very knowledgeable. Each and every one probably knows a lot more about Microsoft apps than I do - I have no idea how to use Excel etc for instance! Having said that, I was not brought up in a computing environment - no computers at school when I was there! > Forget the person from the mid nineties who thought > that being familiar with Office apps was the bees knees. Word processing, > spreadsheets, even presentation packages are a given with anyone who has > ever worked in an office or on a shop floor. The person who has a computer > now has: > > More than one computer requiring networking > Debateable. I have lots - but I - and many other "geeks" tend to have more computers than the norm! But even at the local college, many of the students on the computing courses have only one computer - and no network. Linux is a lot easier from a networking point of view than Windows in my view. It is also designed as a networking system - unlike Windows. > Printer > > Scanner > > Camera > > MP3 player (or Ipod, certainly not Ogg Vorbis) > > Card reader, > > TV and TV recorder > > Video > > Music generator > > Personnal organiser/phone/camera > > Etc., etc., etc. > > > > And whatever you may think about Windows, these users have got their bits > and pieces running under that operating system even though there may be a > few warts with it. To transfer to GNU Linux is a major operation which > requires that you change from being a competent computer user to being a > computer technician, a bit of hardware savvy, a bit of software savvy and a > damned lot of patience. > My views on Windows have been expressed before - basically, the products are OK in the main, but the company ethics suck! Apart from the odd make and model for the above list, it should all simply work in Linux straight away. Much more easily than in Windows - no driver installs, reboots etc. Cameras, mp3 players, card readers and most other USB products are simply plug and go in Linux. The problem with some of the other things - like scanners for example, is lack of information from the manufacturers. If we don't have either a "driver" or specifications from the manufacturer, someone has to work it out the hard way. Some organisers - e.g Palms, work. Some phones do too - my motorola for example, but the same applies - do the manufacturers support Linux? If so, it will work, if not, it needs a bit of research before buying. > > > I had a main Win desktop connected to a secondary desktop via a wireless > ADSL router. I decided to convert the secondary unit to Linux, sorry, GNU > Linux, with a view to complete transfer. I wiped Windows and started > installing from Linux Format discs. But nothing recognised wireless on > install. I now know, or think I know, that this is because there are no > open source wireless drivers, or at least a grave, shortage, but it is > irritating that all installs warn you that they may be rubbish because they > can't access the net. I eventually got Mepis and PCLinuxOS to work. Not > Suse, Redhat or Ubuntu, but I may have another go at them. Printing only > cost a pinprick of blood. Cameras easy peasy. MP3 player a lot of manual > reading. File transfer between computers a pint of blood. Wine a tortuous > half work around > > Depending on the make, wireless can be easy or a pain. My rt2500 based chipset works perfectly - better than the same card in Windows, which tends to drop the connection now and again. File transfers are so easy - from Windows to Linux, Linux to Windows or Linux to Linux - one of my daughters still uses Windows so I get the opportunity to move files from one OS to the other from time to time. > > By this time I am only continuing out of bloody mindedness and I join the > DLUG. And what do I read there? I must only use Open Source and be > flogged as a sinner if I use some of the not quite Kosher drivers. So I > look at what Mepis says about GNU Linux. They seem to think that it is an > overwhelming burden that Open Source insists on having the source code with > every distribution. And my other goer, PCLinuxOS, doesn't even acknowledge > the existence of Open Source. > My only comment would be that not all members of the wider community are rabid zealots. I use whatever works - and if that isn't "free", I don't lie awake at night worrying! PCLinuxOS must acknowledge the Open Source project - not sure exactly what you mean there - even Microsoft accept that the movement exisits! > > > I must install Debian and redeem my sins. And therein lies madness. One > comment on the thread was that the manuals are generally dreadful and I > agree. You cannot work with Debian without a passing knowledge of Bash. > Having got into man bash, I ended up climbing the wall finding out how to > get out of it. And having finally got back to the command prompt (ah, a > nice familiar DOS term) I can't remember how I did it. I am now ploughing > my way through Rute which seems to be a nice sensible tutorial, so far. > Yep, that was my comment. Most manuals etc are far too technical for new users - some are simply too technical unless you actually developed the program! Rute is something I used to recommend - glad to see you have discovered it. There *are* good sources of information out there - but it is a pain to track them down. > > > So what would the Windows man, the man on the Clapham Omnibus, have done by > now? Forked out in advance for his copy of Vista I suspect. The battle > for the server is going very nicely thankyou but I suspect that the desktop > user is back about where we were with Windows 3. > I would agree that Linux is not really quite there for Joe Average. It is very useable and I use it as my only operating system (though I do have access to Win98,2000 and XP if I need to have). If someone enjoys finding out how things work - then give Linux a shot. Likewise for those who enjoy a challenge - as you mention, it can be a little frustrating at times! > > > And a happy New Year to one and all. > > > > George > > > > PS KDE over Gnome any day KDE here too! Linux is moving very quickly forward. When I started out with it, installing on a laptop was a real nightmare. That is why, I suspect, the Linux on Laptops website was created. Now, I can take any laptop and install Linux. Yes, there is a chance that the wifi may not work straight away, but pretty much everything else should do. So in 20 minutes of less, I can install a complete OS, with full office suite and all the other goodies and maybe have to spend another 30 minutes or so getting the driver for the wifi working. Or, if not pre-installed, I could spend 30 minutes installing XP, then another 30 minutes of rebooting each time to install the driver for each item, followed by more time installing an office suite..... For the majority, Windows is what their machine came with, they are familiar with it and thats fine - no problem with that. Microsoft very cleverly market their products - they are all that is available at school/work for most people and they have no desire to learn a new OS, no matter how similar it is to the old one - they know how to use Windows, so thats what they want. Some people will feel the urge to experiment and see what this Linux lark is all about - they may decide it is too complex, which is fine - and go back to Windows. But some of those people will keep trying and eventually may decide that Linux is OK. I suspect most of us came to Linux that way - I know I did. I would not expect all users of a computer to use Linux, nor indeed want to use Linux. But at least the open source message is out there in Windows land - with projects such as Firefox and Thunderbird. I hope you feel you can continue your foray into Linux, George. If you get stuck, feel free to ask - there are plenty of people out there who can assist. Cheers, Mark -- The Mailing List for the Devon & Cornwall LUG http://mailman.dclug.org.uk/listinfo/list FAQ: http://www.dcglug.org.uk/linux_adm/list-faq.html