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Re: [LUG] Choice and bugs in free software

 

Neil Williams wrote:
> My dislike of Microsoft began early (about half a second after I 
> started using Gem and wondered how Microsoft managed to botch Windows 
> so badly when Gem was doing the same thing, better, years before.)
Ah.. the Atari ST.. lovely bit of kit.. and yes GEM was nice.. *and* 
small!  Windows Vista RC1 takes 6.6Gb of HD space!  Granted that's a 
pre-release version, but even so that's horrendous.
>>>  The purpose of the system is to be free software, the purpose of  
>>> the  system is not to be popular. Maybe some people will not want to 
>>> use  the system, because a certain codec is not available, but we 
>>> should  not include those codecs by default, or make them available 
>>> to them  in  any way. Same with drivers. Non-free kernel modules are 
>>> in a grey  area  anyway, as to create a derived work of a GPLd piece 
>>> of code, it  must  be GPLd.
>> How many in the wider community would agree with that though Matt?
> Many - >1,000 Debian developers, the majority of Fedora developers and 
> a sizeable majority of Ubuntu, Mandriva, SuSE and every other free 
> software distribution. The Xandros/Linspire lot may disagree but 
> that's their choice.
Actually I use Xandros and I agree with the principle, but principles 
need to be balanced with practicality - as you say 'choice'.  Principles 
are fine in theoretical exercises but there are some times when you have 
to use proprietary software *until* the open source becomes available.  
In general people are quite happy to use open source software *if it 
exists*.  No amount of telling them proprietary software is bad is going 
to do any good if no alternative is offered.

Somebody saying 'You can't use that software you need for your business 
because it's proprietary' is going to get a very rude response.  Not 
from me I hasten to add - I don't use the PC for business.  I can 
however see it happening very easily.
> That is debatable. Free software is a voluntary task. Contributors 
> need to bring their own motivation to the party - nobody in the 
> community is going to provide the motivation for you. Popularity is 
> not equivalent to motivation, neither does popularity necessarily 
> increase the proportion of *motivated* people interested in free software.
What popularity would do is bring more users to Linux.  More users means 
that the hardware and software manufacturers will take more notice.  
More notice means they will look more favourably on opening up their 
code to the OS community.  That can only be good for open source.  In 
that case popularity *would* equate to motivation, in the context of a 
hardware manufacturer for example, looking at increasing usage of Linux 
and deciding 'If I release the code to run my hardware in Open Source 
format I will sell more units *and* I can leave driver/module 
development to the community and dump my development costs... WHOOPIE!'  
Popularity would motivate the manufacturer indirectly - I admit the 
actual motivation would be 'I want more sales', but the popularity 
increase would achieve that goal indirectly.

If the price for achieving that goal is releasing versions of Linux that 
are similar cosmetically to Windows then IMHO it is a small price to pay.
> It is best to have choice.
>
> Freedom requires an informed choice. A world where every computer has 
> any specific OS preinstalled without exception is *not* a free 
> software world.
>
> I don't want Debian on every desktop. I *do* want everyone to have the 
> information and freedom to make the choice to use free software - in 
> whichever flavour best suits their needs at that time. This is why 
> pre-installed Windows is a huge problem.
I agree with that completely.  Not to mention that not all companies do 
a good job of preinstalling it to start with.  I know of one case at 
least where a consumer was sold a Windows XP PC where virtually nothing 
worked.  It transpired the well-known PC retail outlet had simply 
chucked Windows XP on a PC designed to run Windows 98.  Oddly enough 
when XP was ripped off and '98 installed everything worked.

I don't say 'you must always use OS software'.  I prefer 'you should use 
OS software *where available* and try to push the development of OS 
software where it currently is not available'.
> I would agree with Matt - with the proviso that this remains a 
> *should* and not a *must*. Choice must be preserved or we lose the 
> very freedoms we seek to protect.
Well said :)
>
>>  Are those who use a few non-free programs alongside their GNU/Linux  
>> core not  at least experiencing the pleasures of the Open Source 
>> community and  software?
>
> This deserves another thread, but suffice to say that simply loading a 
> binary driver into a free software kernel is sufficient for kernel 
> developers to wash their hands of you because they have no way of 
> knowing if bugs in your system are caused by the binary (i.e. hidden) 
> code overwriting the open code in incompatible / non-standard ways.
This is why I am persisting with MADWifi rather than using NDISwrapper.  
I'd rather have a pure open source wireless setup than a butchered setup 
with a Windows driver underneath it all.
> I cannot help you fix certain bugs in your system if your system is 
> tainted in such a manner because I cannot determine the true location 
> of the buggy code. It is that simple.
>
> If you use proprietary software, you distance yourself from the wider 
> community and place a barrier between you and full community support. 
> Therefore, proprietary software can only *increase* the number of bugs 
> in your system and most if not all the extra bugs are *unfixable*.

Fair comment, but as above a user can only use what is available to 
them.  If they need a specific function delivered that OS cannot 
currently provide then they must have the choice to use an interim 
solution, necessarily closed source.

Kind regards,

Julian

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