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On 27/11/05, Neil Williams <linux@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > Is there? I know of no such need. IMHO, the proposition itself is deeply > offensive and, frankly, insulting to me as a GNU software developer. Like most of the software that's written, it's custom software for a particular job that never sees the light of day, outside of a particular office or team. They're already able to do quite a lot with their own work, and if using a tool like RealBasic gets them on to GNU/Linux quickly, I don't have a problem with that. > There is no need to develop anything new under Cocoa on OSX, there is no need > to develop anything new for WinCE. We have complete replacements for those, > in free software. If it isn't to your taste, then help it improve - don't > encourage the proprietary side. So, you don't think there's a need for any new free software for the Mac? See, for the next few years at least, I think I'm pretty much stuck using my Macs, and I'll get on to why in a second... > There is a clear need for more free software that runs on OSX (i.e. X11, not > Cocoa). Wrong. X11 is ugly and doesn't follow the Mac HIG, and most people won't use it. > There is a need for free software that runs on Windows - like the Mozilla > family and OOo. With or without Cygwin? Mozilla and OOo don't need Cygwin, so I think you contradict yourself here. > There is NO need to have non-free code on a GNU/Linux system. Absolutely zero. I want to play Flash movies in my browser and listen to MP3 files. What should I do? > If what is available is not up to your subjective 'quality' standards, then > get involved with those projects and help them improve! The ball is in your > court, Matt. The free software to meet your needs exists. If you have issues > with it, get involved and offer help to improve it. You have that freedom and > it is incredibly valuable. It discredits your support for GNU if you don't > use the freedoms granted to you to solve issues you feel are apparent in the > code! Actually, the free software that does meet my needs gets used, but the stuff that doesn't - I don't use. Free software is fantastic, and when I can actually do all the things I need to do, I'll use it.. but I don't know C or C++, and I have no desire to learn them. I develop for the web, with Python and Zope, largely, but occasional bits of MySQL, PHP and I'm starting do things with Ruby. I'm doing all my deployment on Debian using completely free software... because that free software actually works. Firefox, I use that, and I've been working with RMS and the Mozilla Foundation to get a totally free version of that out, so we can use it. I'm now working with people at the FSF to improve the quality of the GNU and FSF web sites, one uses Plone/Zope and the other is largely static and messy... > Which side are you truly on? I like freedom; both free software, but also, free culture which is where the majority of my outside of work time goes. During work, I'm developing on a free platform, and deploying on free servers. Zope products that are useful, have been released as free software. > Non-free software on a GNU/Linux system is not an option, it is an offensive > compromise - a sell-out. You might as well go the whole hog and patent your > non-free code. See what a pariah you would have become. This is why I don't use it.. I kind of agree with you, but at the same time, I don't see someone using a non-free Mozilla plugin as a problem. If I want to watch Homestar Runner on my laptop, I don't think I'm betraying anyone. There's a GPLFlash plugin in development - awesome, and when its finished, I'll use it. Would you rather I ran Windows XP on my laptop and watched my Flash cartoon there, instead? > Stand up for GNU: > 1. Never install non-free on a free system. > 2. Never promote non-free above free on any system. > 3. Always seek to use free on any non-free system. > 4. If free isn't to your taste, use the freedom granted to you to improve it! I'm actually in the midst of producing a new project, in which people up here in Leeds (I moved, btw) are going to be getting me trying to use a free desktop, and I'm going to write up and provide documentation for all the things I'd like to see. > What does everyone else think - shouldn't we adopt these principles for the > group as a whole? Make the promotion of GNU an explicit goal for the group in > our mission statement? Should we not be clear that non-free is deprecated - > and explain why? I think *for now*, it's a goal, but shouldn't be a requirement. It's my goal too. > Doubtful because the underlying methodology cannot be transferred - you still > need a separate runtime library for each platform. Each application uses a > particular version of the library and you end up with copy after copy > installed. It's worse than the JRE. I think it uses a fat binary, actally. I quite like that approach. > Solve the problem, not the symptom. How? > Split that monolithic runtime library into inter-operability libraries that > can be installed separately to suit the needs of the individual user. That is > how Gnome and KDE work - if you want a GUI RAD tool, it should support the > free software principles. Yeah, I can agree with that. > The weakness in that statement is the subjective term 'quality'. KDE and Gnome > are quality desktops and there are plenty of quality applications that will > run on either, IMHO. If you disagree, do something to fix your own problem > using the freedom that has been granted to you. GNOME is good, and there's a fair bit of good software.. I'm not in a position to fix things with code, but I can certainly help with usabilty. It's the usability of stuff that's part of the problem, I'm not happy to edit a configuration in a terminal, when it SHOULD be done in a GUI. > THAT is the solution to your problem, Matt. NOT using non-free as a 'quality > improvement' but replacing all non-free code with free. Okay, so how do we progress with this? > Run free software on whatever non-free system you like - but it is > fundamentally wrong to run non-free software on a free software OS. I agree, but I really think I need to wait for a bit then. > You've got things the wrong way around, Matt. As a GNU supporter, you should > be seeking to have GNU software your priority in all situations. I'm certainly seeking free software, GPL is my preferred license. > By my count, you've got at least 6 already. Two now. One has Ubuntu, one has OS X. > You won't encourage much development by ignoring what is already available and > insulting those developers that do work on the code by dismissing their work > in favour of the non-free sell-out. I'm not dismissing anything, I want things to be better for everyone. -- Matt Lee CNUK Media Foundation -- The Mailing List for the Devon & Cornwall LUG Mail majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with "unsubscribe list" in the message body to unsubscribe. FAQ: www.dcglug.org.uk/linux_adm/list-faq.html