On Sunday 26 September 2004 8:07 pm, john wrote:
On Sunday 26 September 2004 5:35, Neil Williams wrote: I dunno where you're coming from here Neil, and it would help if you tied your colours to the mast,
http://www.codehelp.co.uk/html/about.html http://code.neil.williamsleesmill.me.uk/ http://isbn.neil.williamsleesmill.me.uk/ plus the sites in my sig.
for the moment I am split between wondering whether you're more interested in shooting me down because
you are peddling FUD. :-) Actually, I just want to make it clear that there is more to GNU/Linux than a stable GUI. Freedom must be discussed, licences and technical details are important. There's a place in the group for all contributors, I feel that it is right to encourage new users to aspire to something better than where they are now, to motivate experienced users to find new ways of helping and to inspire those with the desire to load up their text editor and start writing some code. Those users who take, take, take should appreciate how much the community has already given them and be encouraged to give something back. When it's provided free of charge, there sometimes needs to be a clear message that it should not be deemed worthless or easy. Companies wanting to make money out of GNU/Linux can only do so if the users appreciate the value of the system and the company. If you do-down the worth of developers and the community as a whole, it devalues the system itself.
This list does discuss those issues because they are more important than converting more users.______________NOTHING_____________ is more important than incresaing the user base.
WRONG. Without developers, you will have no users. Developers are the key to the future, users are the key to profitability - something that is not essential to free software. One cannot be without the other. You appear to be equating success with £ - this is simply not applicable to free software as it must be to proprietary software. My code costs nothing to develop, it also provides no income to me or anyone else - that does not mean that the code is unnecessary or unsuccessful. At it's deepest level, this entire thread comes down to a definition of success. You equate success in terms with which BG would be familiar. I equate success in terms that bugs get fixed, freedom is protected and users get better programs. I don't give a hoot about financial rewards, footprints, desktop impressions, marketing spin or any other form of bums on seats measurement. (Don't forget, I'm a user too!) Would you disagree with that assessment (not the validity of the two positions, just the summary of the overall position)?
We need more contributors. People who can make a difference, make things better, write documentation, help others. Not sit around feeling smug like parasites.what we need are less self appointed elite looking down their noses at others and branding them as lusers and parasites.
I was a newbie once - as I clearly outlined. I resent only those who refuse to learn for they cannot be taught and cannot be helped - the clueless users who think that they can get by without ever getting their grey matter operational.
GNU/Linux is free software because the community puts in massive amounts of effort. GPL/BSD, ePatents, TIMTOWDI, Mach, SCO, copyleft - all these things must be discussed and understood or the OS itself will die.What, all the code already written will unravel and evaporate?
Become irrelevant, existing bugs won't be fixed, new standards will not be adopted.
sure, the linux operating systems out down won't evolve without further development, but that is not about to happen, and converting windows users to linux will not in any way, as you are trying to imply, weaken that.
If they all sit idle, blinded by sales talk instead of inspired to cooperate, contribute and defend the OS against ludicrous things like ePatents. Don't paint a picture of either extreme, don't leave either party out of the equation. You appear to elevate users above developers which is nonsense. Developers and users must work together - that's the reason GNU/Linux has grown so quickly.
your arguments appear riddled with hypocricy, you pro linux and therefore anti copyright
?? No-one in GNU/Linux is anti-copyright. Read those RMS links properly! Copyright is the basis of the GPL. ePatents are not the same issue, neither is DRM. Copyright (as originally designed) is fine - what we don't need is yet more extensions to the life of a copyright restriction but that's another issue entirely. I am passionately pro-copyright. This does not preclude an equally passionate anti-DRM stance.
If we changed this list to Devon and Cornwall GNU/Linux User Group - would you object?Yes, for obvious reasons.
Explain. (As this is very likely to happen.) All we are doing is giving credit where it is due. This system is not Linux - that's just the kernel. The system is GNU/Linux. We don't only support kernel users, the majority of threads centre around programs, interfaces, protocols and procedures. These are all based in the GNU realm, not the kernel. As a programmer, accuracy and precision are important to me and I feel that we have been doing GNU/Linux harm by not giving credit to those who helped create the rest of the system that we seek to promote and improve.
If you did I'd simply unsubscribe because there is little point being associated with something that is doomed to be an also ran.....
You object to GNU as opposed to ??
you know, at the meeting there were strong sentiments about people wanting to make a living out of linux, making a living out of windows is easy
because people pay for it. GNU/Linux is free. It's harder to make money but it can and should be done.
yeah, and what do they get presented with to read? hmm?
Plenty of excellent documentation is available, books and online. Lots of people have learnt this way, it's fun.
you just don't "get" marketing do you.
So what? Marketing is a pack of lies. It has nothing to do with free software.
I am constantly having to play down the paranoia from pharmaceutical companies that believe that a 1 in 2billion chance of a rash is worth scaring the other 1 billion patients who read the leaflet. (Maths is OK - many don't read it!)so you then go and emulate them when pushing your OS of choice...
?? How is helping newbies emulating BigPharma? ??
I guess all the businesses that serve the above lack of interest should close up shop and send out "Dummies guide" books?
You're comparing material goods with software - do you need someone's help to read a newspaper? Or listen to the radio? No, of course not. So it is with code - it's a form of communication, a form of speech. There's nothing wrong with people learning how to do things themselves - it's not as if they need to have specialised equipment or even spend any money.
whom, may I ask, do you suppose you are developing your 0.00001% of linux for?
Me! It's great that it benefits others but the main impetus to do code rather than go for a walk on Dartmoor is because I need the program to do something that it cannot already do. That and the fact that I'm always thinking up new functions anyway. Some people paint or write music, I code.
4. The emphasis of GNU/Linux must be on both the users and the developers. You cannot expect growth if we are all reduced to explaining every TLA.doh, most users will help themselves or each other
That's the contribution that I want most users to offer. That's all it is. Fine if they want to go further, but what's wrong with helping each other?
, the more users you have the easier that gets, most windows problems are sorted by fellow windows users, not MS developers.
True - it's the same with GNU/Linux except that it is easier for keen users to become developers.
To get 1000 new developers you probably need 100,000 experienced users, because total conversion doesn't apply. To get 100,000 experienced users you need 10,000,000 bog standard users.
I've never said developers can exist alone, you seem to think users can exist alone.
How many new users has dclug created in the last year? do you even know?
Why should we know? We don't need to take a register or take payment for licences, let people do what they like doing.
is there anywhere for potential new users to go and browse new users opinions and experiences.
Like that's going to help - blind leading the blind. Very new users should go to more experienced users, who can look to the developers who can look to the more experienced developers. Somewhere along that line, the problem should get fixed!
I haven't either seen any signs that you grep that TimBL gave the world a wonderful thing, but 1000 people trying to ape him or cloning him 1000 times probably still won't produce a single comparable piece of work.
Of course not, I do what I can but I readily pass problems on to those who can help me.
The issues will change in the future, but freedom will still need to be defended.you cannot defend something you do not have
So don't give it up to those seeking their 'rights'.
you cannot defend ANYTHING by just talking
But talking is essential to communication and thereby to motivation and action.
cos you want it to become a mainstream OS, not OS2....
It's doing that already, without much marketing help.
monopoly isn't the enemy of anything.
?? Pardon? anti-competitive practices, cartels, if monopolies are so good, why does every commercial avenue promote competition? I don't think it is justifiable to push GNU/Linux onto every computational device on the planet to the exclusion of all else. It isn't healthy and it isn't wise. Freedom thrives when there is a stimulus to improve - many would postulate that Microsoft lost their way between Win3.11 and Win95 because competition wasn't strong. We are all still living with the consequences. -- Neil Williams ============= http://www.codehelp.co.uk/ http://www.dclug.org.uk/ http://www.isbn.org.uk/ http://sourceforge.net/projects/isbnsearch/ http://www.biglumber.com/x/web?qs=0x8801094A28BCB3E3
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