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On Sunday 26 September 2004 3:36 pm, DaveNull wrote:
Neil was apparently under the impression that the things discussed on saturday would be over the head of windows users
Misquote. It was not designed with those users in mind - whether or not they could understand it, it was not a meeting designed to meet their needs. If they did, fine.
, my experience contradicts this, in my experience if you want to UTTERLY confuse a windows user then recursive acronyms, BSD licencing versus GPL, pick any distro from distrowatch vs pick any other distro, I could go on and on and on.
This list does discuss those issues because they are more important than converting more users. We need more contributors. People who can make a difference, make things better, write documentation, help others. Not sit around feeling smug like parasites. GNU/Linux is free software because the community puts in massive amounts of effort. GPL/BSD, ePatents, TIMTOWDI, Mach, SCO, copyleft - all these things must be discussed and understood or the OS itself will die. These structures exist to support the community who support the OS. Every GNU/Linux user needs to be aware of the ethical and philosophical principles behind the free software that they use. It pays to read Richard Stallman's pages on these issues: http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/free-sw.html http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/free-software-for-freedom.html Without RMS, there would likely be no more than a kernel for us to use.
Linux in 2004, far more so than in the early days, and you only have to go to sites like slashdot for absolute proof of this, has a significant proportion of users / advocates / adverents / proponents that have managed to turn it into a priesthood or religious cult, where before you even start you must sit down and study the meaningless language in order to worship with the correct words and not cause a riot on the altar by using the wrong word for the wrong situation
Like Linux instead of GNU/Linux. Wouldn't you be offended if I publicised a project that contained a significant contribution from yourself but omitted to acknowledge your input? If we changed this list to Devon and Cornwall GNU/Linux User Group - would you object?
, like it or not, for most windows users joining the church of linux is about as appealing as being audited by the scientologists, studying dianetics and accepting the ultimate truth that el ron was right and aliens are in charge.
Doesn't mean that they are right to do so. Users can learn, users can read. Let them make up their own minds. We'll provide all the support they need, but users cannot expect spoon-feeding.
I don't care how much you dislike this statement, because it isn't a statement of opinion, but it is a statement of fact,
Myth.
and if you stop and think for a minute instead of just reacting you will see that it is true.
I did, it's still an urban myth.
Windows has NONE of these sorts of issues, it is baby simple,
In the manner of an abscess - all the pus is hidden under a veneer. Windows is far from simple - the resulting dichotomy is behind most Windows crashes.
Contrast this with Linux, where COMMERCIAL companies actual feel that there is COMMERCIAL need and demand to include LEGAL INDEMNITY COVER
Some companies, not all - generally those who don't trust their own IT department. SCO is on a hiding to nothing and everyone knows it. The only idiots to pay up are blind.
Just think about that, companies with large, retained and expert legal teams cannot definitively decide if an action is right or wrong, so they find an indemnity clause is actually a factor in making a sale!!!!
Don't you believe it. Companies often run scared of their ignorant lawyers. I am constantly having to play down the paranoia from pharmaceutical companies that believe that a 1 in 2billion chance of a rash is worth scaring the other 1 billion patients who read the leaflet. (Maths is OK - many don't read it!)
What hope does the home user have? (no good saying it doesn't apply, the home user doesn't know that, salmonella in eggs etc)
Then they shall learn. Simple.
as I said correctly, without having signed a non disclosure and had sight of the crediton guys project, it is PURE speculation to say whether or not they should or should not pay the licence fee.
No, it's an educated assessment in full knowledge of the facts, not the rumour mill. Learning, education, knowledge - the bedrocks of freedom.
My comments were made in the windows language, windows users like that,
Because it's too simplistic. Life isn't simple, neither is Windows, GNU/Linux or MacOS.
That last word will generate a discussion amongst the linux nerds about "ah yes, but free as is speech or free as in beer" and bang, you just lost another convert, I have seen this happen _________so_________ often you wouldn't believe it.
Have you? Well, you're not putting the message across clearly.
you know what they don't care about (and yes I know linux isn't immune to malware, but windows users dont care about the fine detail)
That's my point - they should and they are being short-changed by anyone who denies such.
are keenest to do, insist on communicating only in high latin.
1. The OS needs developers. 2. Developers need to talk in terms that make development easier. 3. There is not a separate department of developers, we live and email from amongst the user group and there we thrive. Many users become developers, mostly by ear-whigging to threads involving more experienced users and developers. 4. The emphasis of GNU/Linux must be on both the users and the developers. You cannot expect growth if we are all reduced to explaining every TLA. 5. Experienced users need to be nurtured and encouraged into becoming developers. We do this via meetings that focus on the technical, the complexity, the tools, the solutions and the principles. Use the Source, Luke. RTFM.
You can do one of two things in the world, you can act so that things generally get a bit better for your passing, or you can act so things generally get a bit worse.
Developing GNU/Linux software clearly makes the world better for millions - recruiting more developers makes the world better for existing developers and therefore for millions more users.
the GUI is the OS to most people
Wrong. The GUI is all eye-candy. The real OS lies behind the GUI. There have been attempts to write themes for GNU/Linux that imitate Windows - what is the point of that? It is what lies behind that is fundamental, not what you first see.
, so what is the FUNDAMENTAL difference between windows and linux?
Freedom. Even if Microsoft re-invented all the technological wizzo of GNU/Linux, the fundamental difference would still exist. They can't just copy it because the community has put so much effort into preventing the abuse of the free software and source code.
This is spreading to EVERYTHING digital, which means it is spreading to EVERYTHING.
Which is why discussion of ePatents and how to support people like the FFII and FSF in their battle to maintain the freedom is so important.
Both Microsoft and Debian are transient, perhaps not ten years but 50 and certainly both will be in the realms of the altair, intel 8008, pong and punched cards, its not about that and never has been, it is about digital rights
1. There is no such thing as intellectual property (no legal construct exists), so there is no object that can be construed as 'digital rights' - all you have are disparate licences and copyright. (RMS). 2. The issue is freedom, not rights.
The whole high latin linux geek speak thing, the whole microkernel vs macrokernel (for what it's worth my money is firmly on microkernel being as dead a duck as the 16 bit mx stuff) things, the whole GNU IS NOT UNIX is not unix recursive acronym thing and gpl vs bsd thing and all the other crap is just that, knowing your present for past participles is good, as is knowing a simile from a metaphor, but neither is essential and neither is included in "A is for Apple"
It is essential to the maintenance and protection of the system as is now. The issues will change in the future, but freedom will still need to be defended.
the crediton guys work for lawyers, there was mention of a thousand clients, lets say ten lawyers per client, my god, imaging being able to expose TEN THOUSAND lawyers to Debian, all those memes being absorbed, sure as hell their ears will perk up next time words like "European Intellectual Property and Digial Rights Management" are uttered, or blunkett twitches, etc
But for them to care, they have to know WHY Debian is threatened by such unintelligible legal mumbo-jumbo. They have to understand free software, understand freedom.
I enjoyed Kai's talk on web applications, I just wish we could have convinced more people that free software is the way to go.
Education, knowledge, not fancy sales talk. Full disclosure, clear progression paths, simple API interfaces, these are the things that let GNU/Linux develop but underneath there is complexity - we don't do anyone any favours by pretending that an OS is simple.
I think we should put materials on the site to help people understand why GNU/Linux is good for them. We need to preset freedom in a way that's clear, and we need to understand that what we need to succeed.
Yes. That will be the main focus of the revamped website for DCLUG/DCGLUG.
no, you need it installed on as many computers as possible and marketed
?? marketed? Who's to market GNU/Linux? Why should we follow the Microsoft route? Why should GNU/Linux become the next monopoly? Personally, I see no need to have GNU/Linux on every computational device (note: computer is now a restricted term as GNU/Linux and Debian reach out into embedded devices that MS simply cannot handle). Lots, yes, maybe even a majority but we should not aim to replace Microsoft. Monopoly is the enemy of freedom.
speak high latin fluently.... a mepis / knoppix hard disk install and a live cd for them to take away is the way to go.
?? Installers and live CD's are getting easier and easier to use - because the developers are free to work and are well supported. We need to continue on all fronts, not focus solely on users to the detriment of experienced users and those who might become developers with a little help. I'm completely self-taught, within 3 years of switching to GNU/Linux, I had my own free software project out of beta testing and I have recently moved into providing code for large and complex projects. If you look through the archive from 2000, you'll see I asked some very inane questions early on but my friends helped me along with advice and tips - not once did they do the work for me. I have learnt many systems and languages, used a multitude of tools and not once have I let a new user languish in need. This is how GNU/Linux works - it cannot be forced into a Microsoft template. -- Neil Williams ============= http://www.codehelp.co.uk/ http://www.dclug.org.uk/ http://www.isbn.org.uk/ http://sourceforge.net/projects/isbnsearch/ http://www.biglumber.com/x/web?qs=0x8801094A28BCB3E3
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