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Re: [LUG] today's meets and some observations etc.
On Sunday 26 September 2004 5:35, Neil Williams wrote:
I dunno where you're coming from here Neil, and it would help if you tied your
colours to the mast, for the moment I am split between wondering whether
you're more interested in shooting me down because I am me and I stepped on
your pet budgie, or whether you actually genuinely believe this rubbish.
On Sunday 26 September 2004 3:36 pm, DaveNull wrote:
Neil was apparently under the impression that the things discussed on
saturday would be over the head of windows users
Misquote. It was not designed with those users in mind - whether or not
they could understand it, it was not a meeting designed to meet their
needs. If they did, fine.
not really, irrespective of the purpose of the meet, you did clearly enough
state that you thought it would be over windows users heads.
, my experience
contradicts this, in my experience if you want to UTTERLY confuse a
windows user then recursive acronyms, BSD licencing versus GPL, pick any
distro from distrowatch vs pick any other distro, I could go on and on
This list does discuss those issues because they are more important than
converting more users.
is more important than incresaing the user base.
We need more contributors. People who can make a
difference, make things better, write documentation, help others. Not sit
around feeling smug like parasites.
what we need are less self appointed elite looking down their noses at others
and branding them as lusers and parasites.
GNU/Linux is free software because the community puts in massive amounts of
effort. GPL/BSD, ePatents, TIMTOWDI, Mach, SCO, copyleft - all these things
must be discussed and understood or the OS itself will die.
What, all the code already written will unravel and evaporate?
sure, the linux operating systems out down won't evolve without further
development, but that is not about to happen, and converting windows users to
linux will not in any way, as you are trying to imply, weaken that.
on the contrary, it will strengthen it.
the less charitable / cynical / experienced amongst us have seen attitudes
similar to your expressed by people who don't want their own personal
footprint diluted by throngs of newbies, we have all been there, from moaning
about aol'ers and on down backwards, from my own memories I can remember
whingeing when acoustic couplers got cheap enough for home users to afford
them (ditto cd burners and a zillion other things) but guess what, I wasn't
the elite, I was just another human being and all those others soon learned
the same lessons I did and transformed magically from pathetic lusers (hell I
can even remember being involved in that one) to interesting intelligent and
structures exist to support the community who support the OS.
tail wagging the dog
you're trying to make out the OS exists to give people like you a playground,
that's dodo country
Every GNU/Linux user needs to be aware of the ethical and philosophical
principles behind the free software that they use.
no they don't
it isn't true in any other area of human endeavour so why should it be true
it would be ___nice___ if they did, but it is anything but essential...
I'm typing this on a laptop, is it essential that I understand the impact of
the industrial by products of tft production on the taiwanese ecosystem
It pays to read Richard Stallman's pages on these issues:
Without RMS, there would likely be no more than a kernel for us to use.
or Linux, or Vint, or Bill, or Tesla, so what?
or is this like communism, where all comrades are equal brother, but some
comrades like the self appointed priesthood are more equal than others?
Linux in 2004, far more so than in the early days, and you only have to
go to sites like slashdot for absolute proof of this, has a significant
proportion of users / advocates / adverents / proponents that have
managed to turn it into a priesthood or religious cult, where before you
even start you must sit down and study the meaningless language in order
to worship with the correct words and not cause a riot on the altar by
using the wrong word for the wrong situation
Like Linux instead of GNU/Linux. Wouldn't you be offended if I publicised a
project that contained a significant contribution from yourself but omitted
to acknowledge your input?
not in the slightest
the SOLE exception I make to this is if you take my word and break it and that
somehow comes back to haunt me.
your arguments appear riddled with hypocricy, you pro linux and therefore anti
copyright, yes you appear to place personal kudos above getting the installed
If we changed this list to Devon and Cornwall GNU/Linux User Group - would
Yes, for obvious reasons.
If you did I'd simply unsubscribe because there is little point being
associated with something that is doomed to be an also ran.....
you know, at the meeting there were strong sentiments about people wanting to
make a living out of linux, making a living out of windows is easy, cos of
the huge installed user base, you want a thriving industry making a living
out of linux you need a large installed user base FIRST.
, like it or not, for most
windows users joining the church of linux is about as appealing as being
audited by the scientologists, studying dianetics and accepting the
ultimate truth that el ron was right and aliens are in charge.
Doesn't mean that they are right to do so. Users can learn, users can read.
yeah, and what do they get presented with to read? hmm?
Let them make up their own minds. We'll provide all the support they need,
but users cannot expect spoon-feeding.
ok, when you have a baby will it starve to death because you cannot be
bothered to spoon feed it, or are you going to take the long view?
I don't care how much you dislike this statement, because it isn't a
statement of opinion, but it is a statement of fact,
mmm, so its a fact that there are more linux desktops out there then?
you have an alternative explanation that survives scrutiny?
and if you stop and
think for a minute instead of just reacting you will see that it is true.
I did, it's still an urban myth.
Windows has NONE of these sorts of issues, it is baby simple,
In the manner of an abscess - all the pus is hidden under a veneer. Windows
is far from simple - the resulting dichotomy is behind most Windows
the ford fiesta (to take just one example of many possible) is a load of puss
hidden under a thin and fragile veneer.
you just don't "get" marketing do you.
Contrast this with Linux, where COMMERCIAL companies actual feel that
there is COMMERCIAL need and demand to include LEGAL INDEMNITY COVER
Some companies, not all - generally those who don't trust their own IT
department. SCO is on a hiding to nothing and everyone knows it. The only
idiots to pay up are blind.
good way to sway those who were reading this archive and thinking about linux
innit, telling them they are all F****** stupid and incompetent.... and this
from the man that tells me off about swearing.
Just think about that, companies with large, retained and expert legal
teams cannot definitively decide if an action is right or wrong, so they
find an indemnity clause is actually a factor in making a sale!!!!
Don't you believe it. Companies often run scared of their ignorant lawyers.
how about this for a marketing ploy.
Look, you are all unutterably stupid, especially everyone who uses windows.
If you work in windows IT then you are an order of magnitude worse.
If you're a lawyer please report to the ovens for extermination immediately.
Everyone else, just get on your knees and worship me and I shall deign to
invest upon your heads some of my godlike wisdom and knowledge.
If you PAID people you couldn't get them to use linux, and you wonder why
you're having problems giving it away for free!
I am constantly having to play down the paranoia from pharmaceutical
companies that believe that a 1 in 2billion chance of a rash is worth
scaring the other 1 billion patients who read the leaflet. (Maths is OK -
many don't read it!)
so you then go and emulate them when pushing your OS of choice...
What hope does the home user have? (no good saying it doesn't apply, the
home user doesn't know that, salmonella in eggs etc)
Then they shall learn. Simple.
"Let them eat cake."
an appalling attitude.
as I said correctly, without having signed a non disclosure and had
sight of the crediton guys project, it is PURE speculation to say
whether or not they should or should not pay the licence fee.
No, it's an educated assessment in full knowledge of the facts, not the
rumour mill. Learning, education, knowledge - the bedrocks of freedom.
UNLESS you have signed an ND and seen ALL their data you do not even have half
the facts, much less the majority, you have NONE OF THE FACTS.
and from this you make an "educated" assessment in "full knowledge"
comments were made in the windows language, windows users like that,
Because it's too simplistic. Life isn't simple,
it is for me
neither is Windows,
GNU/Linux or MacOS.
you know, there is a saying about competence making tasks appear simple....
That last word will generate a discussion amongst the linux nerds about
"ah yes, but free as is speech or free as in beer" and bang, you just
lost another convert, I have seen this happen _________so_________ often
you wouldn't believe it.
Yes, in more than 95% of times where linux was in with a chance.
Well, you're not putting the message across clearly.
you know what they don't care about (and yes I know linux isn't immune
to malware, but windows users dont care about the fine detail)
That's my point - they should and they are being short-changed by anyone
who denies such.
they should be able to fix a blown head gasket, convert a 3 phase motor from
star to delta, speak at least one foreign language, be able to drive any
vehicle on the roads, do mental arithmetic, know significant amounts of the
law of the land, be able to kill and butcher animals, etc etc etc.
fact is, the don't want to
don't wanna know
couldn't care less
I guess all the businesses that serve the above lack of interest should close
up shop and send out "Dummies guide" books?
are keenest to do, insist on communicating only in high latin.
1. The OS needs developers.
Like I need oxygen, no shortage
2. Developers need to talk in terms that make development easier.
to each other
3. There is not a separate department of developers, we live and email from
amongst the user group and there we thrive. Many users become developers,
mostly by ear-whigging to threads involving more experienced users and
there's your self appointed priesthood right there.
it's like pointing someone who asks about being hacked to a 2600 newsgroup and
saying if they can't undertand the responses there then they are clueless
users and should RTFM
whom, may I ask, do you suppose you are developing your 0.00001% of linux for?
4. The emphasis of GNU/Linux must be on both the users and the developers.
You cannot expect growth if we are all reduced to explaining every TLA.
doh, most users will help themselves or each other, the more users you have
the easier that gets, most windows problems are sorted by fellow windows
users, not MS developers.
Experienced users need to be nurtured and encouraged into becoming
developers. We do this via meetings that focus on the technical, the
complexity, the tools, the solutions and the principles.
To make an omellette, first you need eggs.
To get 1000 new developers you probably need 100,000 experienced users,
because total conversion doesn't apply.
To get 100,000 experienced users you need 10,000,000 bog standard users.
How many new users has dclug created in the last year?
do you even know?
is there anywhere for potential new users to go and browse new users opinions
Use the Source, Luke.
I find your lack of faith disturbing.
read the what manual?
You can do one of two things in the world, you can act so that things
generally get a bit better for your passing, or you can act so things
generally get a bit worse.
Developing GNU/Linux software clearly makes the world better for millions -
recruiting more developers makes the world better for existing developers
and therefore for millions more users.
tony blair doesn't love himself as much as you appear to.
the common man always appears to be at the end of any chain of causality in
your world view, with you at the beginning.
I haven't once even seen a hint of anything suggesting that you need them.
I haven't either seen any signs that you grep that TimBL gave the world a
wonderful thing, but 1000 people trying to ape him or cloning him 1000 times
probably still won't produce a single comparable piece of work.
the GUI is the OS to most people
Wrong. The GUI is all eye-candy. The real OS lies behind the GUI.
you think I'm 16 and fresh out of comprehensive or something?
my knowledge and my experience, and yours, and the facts, are irellevant, my
statement was factually correct, the GUI is the OS to most people.
deal with it
There have been attempts to write themes for GNU/Linux that imitate Windows
- what is the point of that? It is what lies behind that is fundamental,
not what you first see.
, so what is the FUNDAMENTAL difference
between windows and linux?
Even if Microsoft re-invented all the technological wizzo of GNU/Linux, the
fundamental difference would still exist. They can't just copy it because
the community has put so much effort into preventing the abuse of the free
software and source code.
MS could copy BSD tomorrow and give it an xp skin and sell it for 200 quid a
course if they did that they'd have to cobble a registry into it, or
immediately and forever alienating every commericial software house on the
This is spreading to EVERYTHING digital, which means it is spreading to
Which is why discussion of ePatents and how to support people like the FFII
and FSF in their battle to maintain the freedom is so important.
talk is cheap
people with installed debian desktops are going to do more than talk, they are
going to hit DRM proponents in the wallet, that will cause change, talk wont,
not when its stacked up against money.
Both Microsoft and Debian are transient, perhaps not ten years but 50
and certainly both will be in the realms of the altair, intel 8008, pong
and punched cards, its not about that and never has been, it is about
1. There is no such thing as intellectual property (no legal construct
exists), so there is no object that can be construed as 'digital rights' -
all you have are disparate licences and copyright. (RMS).
The Earth is the Centre of the Universe, and all things revolve around it.
2. The issue is freedom, not rights.
Rights are enforceable, freedoms have to be fought for and then enshrined as
talk is cheap
The whole high latin linux geek speak thing, the whole microkernel vs
macrokernel (for what it's worth my money is firmly on microkernel being
as dead a duck as the 16 bit mx stuff) things, the whole GNU IS NOT UNIX
is not unix recursive acronym thing and gpl vs bsd thing and all the
other crap is just that, knowing your present for past participles is
good, as is knowing a simile from a metaphor, but neither is essential
and neither is included in "A is for Apple"
It is essential to the maintenance and protection of the system as is now.
I hear exactly the same arguments inside the RC church
they are just as bogus there and do nothing except allowing the band to play
The issues will change in the future, but freedom will still need to be
you cannot defend something you do not have
you cannot defend ANYTHING by just talking
pure code is essentially just talk
doesn't matter if it is a bible or a bill of rights or a linux kernel, unless
it has a huge user base its like the sound of one hand clapping in a forest
the crediton guys work for lawyers, there was mention of a thousand
clients, lets say ten lawyers per client, my god, imaging being able to
expose TEN THOUSAND lawyers to Debian, all those memes being absorbed,
sure as hell their ears will perk up next time words like "European
Intellectual Property and Digial Rights Management" are uttered, or
blunkett twitches, etc
But for them to care, they have to know WHY Debian is threatened by such
unintelligible legal mumbo-jumbo. They have to understand free software,
horse / cart
for them to give a damn they first have to be exposed to it
I enjoyed Kai's talk on web applications, I just wish we could have
convinced more people that free software is the way to go.
Education, knowledge, not fancy sales talk. Full disclosure, clear
progression paths, simple API interfaces, these are the things that let
GNU/Linux develop but underneath there is complexity - we don't do anyone
any favours by pretending that an OS is simple.
an OS is simple, that's why our kid was using debian at age 5
I think we should put materials on the site to help people understand
why GNU/Linux is good for them. We need to preset freedom in a way
that's clear, and we need to understand that what we need to succeed.
Yes. That will be the main focus of the revamped website for DCLUG/DCGLUG.
no, you need it installed on as many computers as possible and marketed
?? marketed? Who's to market GNU/Linux? Why should we follow the Microsoft
route? Why should GNU/Linux become the next monopoly?
cos you want it to become a mainstream OS, not OS2....
Personally, I see no need to have GNU/Linux on every computational device
(note: computer is now a restricted term as GNU/Linux and Debian reach out
into embedded devices that MS simply cannot handle). Lots, yes, maybe even
a majority but we should not aim to replace Microsoft. Monopoly is the
enemy of freedom.
monopoly isn't the enemy of anything.
speak high latin fluently.... a mepis / knoppix hard disk install and a
live cd for them to take away is the way to go.
?? Installers and live CD's are getting easier and easier to use - because
the developers are free to work and are well supported.
We need to continue on all fronts, not focus solely on users to the
detriment of experienced users and those who might become developers with a
you make an argument that loving one person must mean that you cannot love
another person fully... it is a straw man argument.
I'm completely self-taught, within 3 years of switching to GNU/Linux, I had
my own free software project out of beta testing and I have recently moved
into providing code for large and complex projects. If you look through the
archive from 2000, you'll see I asked some very inane questions early on
but my friends helped me along with advice and tips - not once did they do
the work for me. I have learnt many systems and languages, used a multitude
of tools and not once have I let a new user languish in need. This is how
GNU/Linux works - it cannot be forced into a Microsoft template.
do you know ANYTHING about what went on in the home brew computer club?
apart from the "2000" there's nothing in there that wasn't there back then.
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