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Re: [LUG] [OT] Libertarianism - was "Watching the results trickle in ..."

 

Thank you for your thoughtful response :)

2009/6/16 Benjamin M. A'Lee <bma-lists@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
> Less government spending means fewer public services — like the NHS and
> emergency services, state schools, rubbish collection, public transport
> (still a public service in some places, like Plymouth Citybus, owned by
> the council and much cheaper than the private First busses), road
> maintenence, and so on. Which of these would you like to cut spending
> on first? If anything, most of them could do with more funding, not
> less.

To simply answer the question, I would doubtlessly cut state education
first, as I firmly believe it's responsible for more harm than good.
My retrospective now, informed by studies of developmental psychology
and education, confirms the impression I had when assigned to the
stupid gulag: that schooling was only detrimental to my learning. See
these links for more information:
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com
http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unschooling

> The answer isn’t privatisation, either: I’d argue that where services
> have been privatised (British Rail, BT, water, gas, electricity) the
> service has gotten worse, not better; the competition in these sectors
> leads to loss of quality, not lower prices, and without competition,
> private companies have no incentive to provide a better service.

Taking the example of British Rail (cherry-picking again :P ), it
seems to me there is no competition. The price of tickets is the same
regardless of what service provider you use. All companies are
subsidised heavily. This is not true privatisation, and there is no
free market, so no incentive to provide better service at a lower
price. The pricing scheme, whereby a single ticket costs, for
instance, £40 and a return costs £40.50, I find especially to be an
affront to reason.

> The quote that came up randomly in my sig earlier might apply here:
>
>    “…a return to ’free’ competition means for the great mass of people
>    a tyranny probably worse, because more irresponsible, than that of
>    the State.” — George Orwell, in a review of The Road to Serfdom
>    (1944) by Friedrich Hayek

I didn't realise that was random - what a fabulous coincidence! Why
exchange a public tyranny for a private one? I do see the point being
made, and I've enjoyed reading Eric Blair's work, but I must
respectfully disagree.

Incidentally, I also disagree with him about the form of future
scientific dictatorships. The way I see the world going is far closer
to Brave New World than 1984, though with a different technological
implementation: instead of soma we have anti-depressants; instead of
exposing the foetuses to alcohol we inoculate our young with vaccines
that contain mercury and other substances that attack the brain, put
aspartame (an excitotoxin that was on a Pentagon list of biochemical
warfare agents) in food, and fluoridate the water supply (as done in
Nazi concentration camps); instead of the almighty Ford we have a
pantheon of corporate deities. The future is not a jackboot stamping
on the face of humanity, in my opinion, but rather an array of
techniques that induce people really to be happy in their servitude.

Getting back to the subject of monopolies in the free market, I
encourage you to watch this video from a modern and perspicacious
philosopher:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQms0-jSYqM

I can provide you with textual references if you don't enjoy or prefer
not to watch his presentation :)

> The government is accountable (through elections) to a far greater
> extent than private companies are.

Companies could be restrained by the courts rather than government. If
enforcement were in the hands of private individuals, lawsuits would
quickly make companies bear the costs of production, such as
pollution. That's accepting your assertion that the government's
responsive and accountable, which I don't particularly find to be the
case. Have you seen the declassified history of testing biological
weapons on the British public? There was a good Grauniad article on
it:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,427%203,4398507,00.html

Do you approve of such testing being carried out on you and your
family? Do you believe such tests are no longer ongoing? Who is
accountable, again?

>> Groups are abstractions that *should not* be afforded rights that
>> trump those of individuals.
>>
>> Show me a group and I'll show you a collection of individuals.
>
> I won’t argue against individual rights, but I would argue that
> individuals also have a responsibility to society. An individual has the
> right to free speech, for example, but also the responsibility not to
> misuse it (the cliché of shouting “fire” in a crowded cinema, for
> example).

Yes, I agree absolutely - with freedom comes responsibility, and with
rights come obligations. In fact, I believe rights can be seen as
mutual obligations.

> Further, these groupings and common interests are the basis of
> modern society; civilisation depends of groups of people working
> together for the common good (which is why, for example, some people are
> doctors and some are farmers, rather than everybody having to rely on
> themselves to do everything).

Division of labour is not predicated upon membership of groups. What
are you saying here?

> That’s a rather extreme view of things. You appear to be equating the
> welfare state with Soviet Russia.

Well, my views are rather extreme in this prevailing political culture
of Fabian socialism. I do equate big government and collectivism with
inevitable tyranny. When there's a monopoly of force and power in a
society, it seems to attract the worst deceitful psychopaths around,
which I can back up (as if that were necessary) with this LA Times
article someone just serendipitously posted to facebook:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/06/politicians-and-serial-killers.html
By the way, did you know that Gorbachev actually referred to the EU as
the "New European Soviet"?

>> […]
>> Big business is aided and abetted, and indeed simply couldn't continue
>> to squeeze the poorest sectors of society, without the help of
>> government. The wealthiest ruling families, the ones that have their
>> money in international financial institutions and tax-exempt
>> foundations, love socialism!
>
> Strange, because it seems to me that in the USA, big business has a much
> stronger foothold than here, and they have that foothold because of
> Reagan-era (and earlier) free-market capitalism — certainly not
> socialism of any sort (look at all the uproar because Obama is perceived
> as being ‘socialist’, for example). I honestly can’t see how you get the
> idea that socialism is in favour of big business.

Obama works for Wall Street and moneyed interests, not the people
(like all those at the head of socialist regimes). Have you seen the
film "The Obama Deception"?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAaQNACwaLw

Do you know what Nazi stands for? In case you don't, it was shortened
from National Socialism. Mussolini said that fascism should, more
properly speaking, be called corporatism as it's the merger of state
and business power. It was found by Norman Dodd working for a
congressional committee in America in 1953 that the tax exempt
foundations (Ford, Carnegie, Rockefeller, etc.) were working to
comfortably merge the systems of capitalism and communism.
http://www.supremelaw.org/authors/dodd/interview.htm

There's a whole world beyond the version of reality given to you by
school and the mass media, where the ruling families that own
everything of consequence control (albeit incompletely) what happens
both in the business world and our puppet democracy. The study of how
secret networks and intelligence agencies covertly manipulate our
society is called parapolitics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parapolitics

It has a far more respectable ring to it than "conspiracy theories",
wouldn't you agree?  ;)

> One of the roles of government, in my opinion, is to protect individuals
> from big business — making sure that they have decent wages and working
> conditions, and go on strike if necessary to get those things without
> fear of retribution.

So the government's never engaged in strike-breaking, occasioned with
extreme violence? I believe I can provide examples to the contrary...

> The welfare state exists in part so that people
> aren’t slaves to big business profiteering, and don’t need to worry
> about where money and healthcare will come from if they lose their job.
> (I’ve heard it suggested that the lack of socialised healthcare in the
> USA is stifling business, because people don’t dare quit their job and
> start their own business because their job likely includes health
> insurance for them and their family, which they wouldn’t have if they
> were self-employed.)

That's an interesting perspective. I do believe in healthcare for all,
but I don't think the current system is giving the best service
possible. I'd sooner see a system closer to that in France, where the
insurance is public, but citizens are empowered to some extent to
choose where they get their health care in a market.
http://lpuk.org/pages/manifesto/health.php

Well, my brain hurts now so I'm going back to good, safe,
you-know-where-you-are coding :)

Cheers,
Ralph.

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