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Hi Simon, Thought I'd give my opinion as something of a java fan. Many people (myself included) consider java to be a well-designed modern language (arguably, aside from the exception model). It *is*, however, poorly designed in the sense that a screwdriver is ineffective tool for knocking in nails. Java is designed to be used as an objected-oriented language. This means that your code should typically be distributed across a good many classes so that, in a sense, as much of the logic as possible is expressed in the structure of the program. The benefits of java become more apparent the larger the code base, and seem more like obstacles for "quick and dirty" solutions or for those attempting to use a procedural programming style. A lot of indentation, as others have pointed out, usually means you can refactor to something more manageable. An overly-large class has a "bad smell": http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/People/SmellsToRefactorings I think you're missing a lot of the benefits of java by not using an IDE such as Eclipse or Netbeans. Tools such as code-completion and package navigation are indispensable (at least for bears of little brain such as myself) - especially when it becomes necessary to quickly get up to speed with one of the bewildering array of available libraries. They also allow you to specify formatting rules to be applied to your code at a keystroke :) Good luck! Ralph. _________________________________________________________________ Get Hotmail, News, Sport and Entertainment from MSN on your mobile. http://www.msn.txt4content.com/ -- The Mailing List for the Devon & Cornwall LUG http://mailman.dclug.org.uk/listinfo/list FAQ: http://www.dcglug.org.uk/linux_adm/list-faq.html