[ Date Index ] [ Thread Index ] [ <= Previous by date / thread ] [ Next by date / thread => ]
George Parker wrote: > > Having followed this thread, and as a relative newcomer to Linux, > sorry, GNU Linux, I thought I would put in my 2 pennyworth. > Hi George, Not wishing to hijack your comments, but to put my response in context. I started using computers doing my O Level back in 198mumblemumble.. OK 1984 ish. Since then I have used a 48k Spectrum, 128K Spectrum, BBC B, Atari ST, and my first PC was a 386DX40 4Mb/512K Gfx. Between June 1997 and Feb 2004 I worked as an ISP support technician, 5 years of that as a Senior. On my last day I ran a check to find out how many records had my name in them - from memory it was somewhere over 16,700. I'm now in uni doing an HND (hoping to top up to a degree). Anyway; > > I have to say that if I hadn’t been around computing since 1980, I > would have been a bit put off asking for help by some of this thread. > A touch of condescension here and there with an assumption of quite a > lot of knowledge in some of the answers, albeit clarified in others. > The base of this thread was attracting people over from Windows to the > brave new world and I think that what actually came out would have put > off a lot more than it gave comfort to. > Linux in this respect is very much the same as any other area of human endeavour. You will always get those who know more and assume the same level of expertise in others, those who know a little, and those in the middle ground, and those 'just willing to help'. Happily in my time on this LUG despite my being well outside the 'catchment area' I have always found them willing and helpful without exception. Yes there are strong opinions for and against some of the more defined principles, but it's down to the individual to decide where they stand. Healthy discussion never hurts :) > > IMHO the average person who has Windows on their computer is a pretty > sophisticated user. > That I'm sorry I cannot agree with at all. In my old job we took an average 4000 calls per day, and they were not by any means complex in the majority - ranging from 'What's my password?' (sometimes more than once a day from the same customer!) to the customer who waited a day and a half before calling and asking what to do: he was sat looking at a prompt 'To install the software please click 'Continue'' - he wanted to know what to do. I won't even mention the *alleged* 'IT Comms Degree' student who interrupted me giving him a command line with a plummy 'How are you spelling 'space'?' Oops. My response '*I'm* not... *I'm* pressing the spacebar' stopped any further idiocy. Even now I have a friend who charges a £10 call-out and £10 per hour to fix PCs of people who just cannot get it through their skulls that when the Firewall asks them if something should be allowed access they don't just click Yes to 'get rid of the annoying prompt'. Heck a lot of them uninstall the antivirus and firewall because 'it annoys them popping up all the time'. Clue: That means you have a virus!! > > Forget the person from the mid nineties who thought that being > familiar with Office apps was the bees knees. Word processing, > spreadsheets, even presentation packages are a given with anyone who > has ever worked in an office or on a shop floor. The person who has a > computer now has: > > More than one computer requiring networking > > Printer > > Scanner > > Camera > > MP3 player (or Ipod, certainly not Ogg Vorbis) > > Card reader, > > TV and TV recorder > > Video > > Music generator > > Personnal organiser/phone/camera > > Etc., etc., etc. > Correction, the person who has a computer *may* have one or more of the above. I have *somewhere* a guitar. However I can't play a single note. Possession of an item in no way equates to proficiency with it. In my experience the average user learns how to do the tasks they most commonly perform by rote. Ask them *why* they do X, Y or Z and you might find a 'rabbit in headlights' response. > > And whatever you may think about Windows, these users have got their > bits and pieces running under that operating system even though there > may be a few warts with it. > Or just booted it up from the shop and found that the peripherals supplied with the computer actually work with it (a miracle but it sometimes happens). These users fall into two camps: a) the lucky ones whose peripherals 'just work' and need no further help. b) those who get hep from a friend or support line then 'leave well alone' once it works. In either case they get stuck if something stops working because they don't know how it worked to start with. > > To transfer to GNU Linux is a major operation which requires that you > change from being a competent computer user to being a computer > technician, a bit of hardware savvy, a bit of software savvy and a > damned lot of patience. > Agreed completely, even if I don't wholly agree about the starting position. > > I had a main Win desktop connected to a secondary desktop via a > wireless ADSL router. I decided to convert the secondary unit to > Linux, sorry, GNU Linux, > Either/or - one of those 'which camp are you in?' issues. Personally I find Linux easier to type given my left hand isn't very good. > > I wiped Windows and started installing from Linux Format discs. But > nothing recognised wireless on install. > I had the same aggravation with an ATI Radeon All-In-Wonder card. My first distro was Mandrake 9.0 and their own website said they supported the card. Only *after* installing did I find the caveat to that. Yes it recognised the card, *BUT* it refused to recognise it as a TV card, which made it about as much use as a snorkel in the Sahara desert. Why say something works when it doesn't work *fully*? > > By this time I am only continuing out of bloody mindedness and I join > the DLUG. > Me too :) > > And what do I read there? I must only use Open Source and be flogged > as a sinner if I use some of the not quite Kosher drivers. > I think that is a bit harsh. There are one or two people whose opinion is very polarised along those lines, but being a techie at heart I am a follower of the axiom 'if it works, use it!' I think the general view is that using as much Open Source as is feasible/practical is preferred, but at the end of the day it's your own PC and your right to do as you wish with it. There will be people who don't agree with you, but who says everyone has to agree? :) > > I must install Debian and redeem my sins. > I don't know about alleged sins, but what I *would* say in defence of Debian based distros is that the installation format (*.deb) is one of the two main standards and extremely well supported. In Mandrake (using RPMs) I commonly ended up in 'dependency hell' however with the DEB system I find that to be much less common - cue package that decides to tie itself in knots before lighting the blue touch paper and disappearing at Warp 9 up its' own bum :) > > And therein lies madness. > Therein lies a need for a short course on 'Common installation techniques'. I'm not proficient enough to deliver that, but perhaps one of our more experience posters would be good enough to give an idiot guide to: DEB RPM .GZ .BZ2 (and any others I've forgotten). So that us mere mortals have the ability to have a go ourselves and not repeatedly ask the same questions :) > > One comment on the thread was that the manuals are generally dreadful > and I agree. > Hence my suggestion above. I'm not saying 'spoonfeed people' but at least show them how to feed themselves. Then if they come back it will most likely be with a specific error message they have encountered rather than a generic 'How do I install from X?' > > You cannot work with Debian without a passing knowledge of Bash. > I wouldn't know Bash if I tripped over it. I use Xandros which does have quite a few GUIs. However having come originally way back from a BBC micro, the command line doesn't scare the wossnames off me so when required to I can muddle along. One thing I started doing was printing off answers to questions I asked in here, so over time I learned how to do my most common tasks. Yes, through rote as per the 'average' Windows user :) > > So what would the Windows man, the man on the Clapham Omnibus, have > done by now? > Run off screaming? Looked for the backup he made *before* wiping Windows? He *did* make one didn't he? :) > > Forked out in advance for his copy of Vista I suspect. > I suspect just reinstalled the old Windows. Vista from what I have seen offers no advantages to Windows XP and a *LOT* of disadvantages, most notably as with all Windows so-called 'upgrades' a major performance penalty. > > The battle for the server is going very nicely thankyou but I suspect > that the desktop user is back about where we were with Windows 3. > That I cannot agree with. The 'average' office user will come to Linux able to use Open Office (and still read and write MS Office documents), be able to scan (using SANE), print (caveat: possibly not full photographic quality if not supported yet), email and surf - in those cases using identical software if they previously used Thunderbird and Firefox in Windows, and let's be honest who wouldn't use them in preference to MS's offerings? Yes those with oddball hardware, the gaming fraternity and businesses using specialist software that WINE won't support will have trouble, but the average user should not. > > And a happy New Year to one and all. > The same to you from sunny (OK I lied! :)) South Wales. Julian -- The Mailing List for the Devon & Cornwall LUG http://mailman.dclug.org.uk/listinfo/list FAQ: http://www.dcglug.org.uk/linux_adm/list-faq.html