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Re: [LUG] today's meets and some observations etc.



john wrote:


That was the design of the meeting - you cannot blame the members for doing what they intended from the start. I'm sorry if you
thought it would be a different kind of meeting, book a venue and prepare a
topic - we'll gladly troop along and do a real Welcome mat show, it's been
done before.



I was not attempting to blame anyone for anything, I was attempting to make a point, moreover a point that I think would be relevant to a Linux User Group's members enthusiasms and ambitions for their OS of choice.




Hi All,

As you all (probably) know I live in Wales, so obviously was not at the meeting. However if you don't mind I'd like to make a few observations on this little spat.

Neil is correct that for a long time this meeting has been billed as a Masterclass (regardless of the interpreted definition of the term). Whatever an individual thinks a Masterclass consists of, the term does not lend itself to the image of novice users finding much of interest to them, hence the distinction between Master and Novice in trades :) This to me makes it abundantly clear it was never going to be a "Newbies Intro to Linux" meeting.

we differ, users always have choice.



That depends on the definition of "user". An experienced user has the knowledge and expertise to choose from the available options, PC (Windows or Linux) or Mac. A new user these days is in a totally different world to when I was a new user. (To give you an idea my first computer was a Spectrum 48K back in 1982). Back then if you bought a computer it was expected (maybe even required - see RTFM for details ;)) that you knew what you were doing and what you wanted. Nowadays new users end up in their local PC World/Dixons/Currys etc being extolled the virtues of a PC by sales staff who can turn a computer on (I kid you not... that was the very question asked of a friend in an interview for Sales.... the conversation went:


Her:  I don't know much about computers
Interviewer:  Do you know how to switch one on?
Her:  Yes
Interviewer:  That's all you need for Sales.

Hmm).

The point I am making here is simple. Experienced users know what they want and how to get it. New users rely on (generally) less than competent advice from Sales staff. Another friend bought a network kit at "a well known computer supplier with a name something like Personal Computer Globe" (ish ;)). He turned to a Sales Assistant to ask about the enclosed cable and was brushed off with "we don't support networking". His response I won't quote as it would need editing of the email for the archive ;))

So I respectfully disagree to an extent. New users do not get a choice. They get whatever gets the Sales staff the highest commission. That's a Windows based PC. I'm scared to ask a Sales assistant about Linux. I've never seen a braincell implode and I don't really want to break that habit ;) (Yes I know HP are marketing Linux PCs now.. who wants to bet how long it will take PC World to start stocking them, with their Microsoft contracts?).

If Linux wants to get at the newbie market from day one it *must* be in the retail stores like PC World/Currys/Dixons etc. There is no point them being able to buy a Linux PC only online because.. ummm.. by the time they're online they've already got their PC? The other problem of course is that most will be familiar with Windows from the workplace and when they buy a home PC they will want the comfort zone of an OS they are already familiar with using. It must come to a point where retail outlets offer a choice of OS.

ah yes, the "anything that does not conform to my opinion must by definition be a troll" response.

indescribably sad.



Well no, not as such. A troll is someone who makes deliberately inflammatory comments in the hope of goading those reading into responding, hence the well known phrase "Don't feed the troll". John, you started off with "I want to say something here..." which is akin to my habit in work of occasionally using the phrase "with all due respect" which my colleagues have noted (usually with a wince) generally means I am about to tell the customer (in the nicest possible way of course) that he is a berk, and he's wrong as well. Your variation on it had the immediate effect on me as a reader of thinking "utoh, that sounds like he's going to go off on one". After using a phrase like that it is unavoidable that a) people will read your comments with the jaundiced eye of someone expecting to be offended and b) at least one person is going to be upset/offended by the comments. John, please do not think I am accusing you of being a troll, I am simply pointing out how what you think of as innocuous commentary could easily be misinterpreted (and indeed appears to have been).


Caveats such as "this is not a personal attack on anyone" never work. They tend to get lost, especially in a long email such as the original one; Unless restated at relevant points throughout the mail, by the time the person has read to the point that offends them they have forgotten the opening phrase completely and move straight into "offended" mode.

I hope nobody is offended


Clearly, many would be offended by your offensive language - otherwise you
wouldn't have used the words you used.



oh come on for ***** sake, you hear worse at 7pm on the telly or in a primary school playground, I didn't use any words I did not hear other atendees utter today, admittedly I swear probably far too much, but I do that day in and day out and it is utterly pathetic to suppose it was done for no purpose other than to offend.


You admit to "probably" swearing far too much (as I think many people do in our daily lives). The old saying is, imho, true:

The one language common to all programmers is profanity.

Indeed this is likely true of all IT professionals and possibly *anyone* in a technical trade.

That does not make it right. I have a habit of turning the air blue on many occasions when my <insert random punctuation and control symbols here> computer decides it does not want to play nicely today. However, I am quite aware that posting a request for help anywhere with the phrase "this <expletive> computer has <expletived> up" is counterproductive and unlikely to get help. The best way to get any point across concisely and above all *effectively* is to write it out once. Save it as a Draft. Reread it and remove the inevitable cursing. Reread it and remove the repetitions. Reread it and remove the repetitions *grin*. Then see if it says what you want it to. Then send it. Swearing doesn't help you get the point over and it sometimes alienates those who would otherwise have contributed to the discussion and/or helped.


do you have a mandate to speak for everyone else?


Possibly not, but he has a valid stance in that the original comments were made in open court so to speak (type.. whatever ;)) and responses ought to come in the same venue. It's the same situation as if someone asks a question in an open forum, gets the answer emailed to them, and then replies in the open forum "Thanks!" It generates a flood of "so what was the answer???" emails. Similarly if an insult is made to a person in public. That person has the right to expect any apology to be made under the exact same circumstances as the original insult occurred.

Let me ask you a question, and it is a serious question.

Do you feel that the main purpose of the LUGs is to provide a meeting place for deep geeks to hack? Or do you feel that the main purpose is to promote the use of Linux?


You asked the question of Neil, but as a relative newbie to Linux I'd rather like to see both angles covered, and from my year and a bit on this LUG I have learned a heck of a lot. Maybe I didn't understand everything being discussed at any point, but where it was something I needed/wanted to know the guys and gals have all been unquestioningly helpful. I also know that as my Linux knowledge grows, this will be where I will be able to get the help and expertise I need when (and it happens to everyone) I get stuck :)

Finally after sticking my nose where I am sure it was most unwelcome, may I ask a question please?

Can we get back to Linux now? ;)

Kind regards,

Julian

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