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Just to add, for most ordinary people, they only get rights through acting through a larger group, eg: trade Unions, political parties, or campaigns like the Chartists . There is an apt quote by one of my favourite artists, Atilla the Stockbroker. "There is no freedom, without power to the free" 2009/6/16 Benjamin M. A'Lee <bma-lists@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>: > On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 07:21:42PM +0100, Ralph Smithen wrote: >> Now I must somewhat shame-facedly admit that I've only read a couple >> of articles by Friedman, so I don't claim to support him in all >> things, but this quote seems to stand on its own merit - that is, >> unless you claim that government spending is the most efficient >> possible use of our money (including the 175 billion pounds they pass >> to their mates on QUANGOs each year?). > > Less government spending means fewer public services — like the NHS and > emergency services, state schools, rubbish collection, public transport > (still a public service in some places, like Plymouth Citybus, owned by > the council and much cheaper than the private First busses), road > maintenence, and so on. Which of these would you like to cut spending > on first? If anything, most of them could do with more funding, not > less. > > The answer isn’t privatisation, either: I’d argue that where services > have been privatised (British Rail, BT, water, gas, electricity) the > service has gotten worse, not better; the competition in these sectors > leads to loss of quality, not lower prices, and without competition, > private companies have no incentive to provide a better service. > >> Friedman may have been used as a rationalisation for Thatcherism, and >> the collection of similar policies introduced in America at the same >> time as Reagonomics (though of course only coincidentally and not as >> part of a greater scheme), but the reality was far from his ideals. >> The world has never seen a truly free market. > > The quote that came up randomly in my sig earlier might apply here: > > “…a return to ’free’ competition means for the great mass of people > a tyranny probably worse, because more irresponsible, than that of > the State.” — George Orwell, in a review of The Road to Serfdom > (1944) by Friedrich Hayek > > The government is accountable (through elections) to a far greater > extent than private companies are. > >> > […] >> > 3. Individuals is a meaningless concept. All individuals are part of >> > larger groupings with which they have common interests >> >> Wrong way round! Individuals are primary - I can point them out. >> Groups are abstractions that *should not* be afforded rights that >> trump those of individuals. >> >> Show me a group and I'll show you a collection of individuals. > > I won’t argue against individual rights, but I would argue that > individuals also have a responsibility to society. An individual has the > right to free speech, for example, but also the responsibility not to > misuse it (the cliché of shouting “fire” in a crowded cinema, for > example). Further, these groupings and common interests are the basis of > modern society; civilisation depends of groups of people working > together for the common good (which is why, for example, some people are > doctors and some are farmers, rather than everybody having to rely on > themselves to do everything). > >> > 4. Loads of clauses anti-foreigner, anti-welfare state inc Health >> > service. (BTW the welfare state was not not designed as a bare minimum >> > safety net) >> >> Could you provide me an anti-foreigner quote? >> >> I know the welfare state, which has not been around very long, was not >> designed to be a bare minimum safety net. It's designed to grow and >> grow until the state is our all-mother, all-father and we are all >> landless serfs working for the state-corporate combine. This is not my >> ideal societal system. > > That’s a rather extreme view of things. You appear to be equating the > welfare state with Soviet Russia. > >> […] >> Big business is aided and abetted, and indeed simply couldn't continue >> to squeeze the poorest sectors of society, without the help of >> government. The wealthiest ruling families, the ones that have their >> money in international financial institutions and tax-exempt >> foundations, love socialism! > > Strange, because it seems to me that in the USA, big business has a much > stronger foothold than here, and they have that foothold because of > Reagan-era (and earlier) free-market capitalism — certainly not > socialism of any sort (look at all the uproar because Obama is perceived > as being ‘socialist’, for example). I honestly can’t see how you get the > idea that socialism is in favour of big business. > > One of the roles of government, in my opinion, is to protect individuals > from big business — making sure that they have decent wages and working > conditions, and go on strike if necessary to get those things without > fear of retribution. The welfare state exists in part so that people > aren’t slaves to big business profiteering, and don’t need to worry > about where money and healthcare will come from if they lose their job. > (I’ve heard it suggested that the lack of socialised healthcare in the > USA is stifling business, because people don’t dare quit their job and > start their own business because their job likely includes health > insurance for them and their family, which they wouldn’t have if they > were self-employed.) > > -- > Benjamin M. A'Lee || mail: bma@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx > web: http://subvert.org.uk/~bma/ || gpg: 0xBB6D2FA0 > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > > iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJKOAeiAAoJEKuuEToWaJHH0VAQAKbhPF8hRT2rX2uCFXURgMho > FWc6tsr8pyMtCb9Jjn0H54oa4lXRC5LpnWI/g3Tj3aLePKHFddkCbOt8NHPMZKqi > +gYkyF6oiBbngNB4S5kYs2lzeBN9rTQvbZ/gL5Su0fHCYqUkRc0M4dRZuqw9ChN9 > EcTMtXSGESgbz49TLxzbmKLMcR+FzMrrZfXBWP0XZ7F2FWFVDWtsayj0Flm2tZMa > z0xNnHB0mnN+GLrdHA+OF3cByrpFhqhV5tapc8glTjNycYrVIGfr0FRf+a8Dn5In > vpNXERjhU2HmplpMTkpFUoO59UdG4oQPBPXuD5ezE3o7plArGjAGTPQiv+4GpSGg > Z6maH52Ta+RHkXO28yS1up8tdRl7BSMUiFg0cQUPeMTj2zdmfePH1qwb6odvGaxz > q41R30OzgWT8X7ZE0ibiBgW/iV374hrFAD6zdEHZ+/r/Vtj8LAw45m+HMGLVCEXB > 8Kb+eo0mEd2bBZpIWWZtEvFrgaY+UNBWEFlYM4YxU051PkIsLdSd8TkU2PofT5XD > 3T1+tk5ZYHs+iNxd4kzO8jNco3GMmp//iajbCfuVBt4m7Uvoj5nMyn3k0UPFHQQT > 4S+vOr6plf9H5J0zWWImMvKA6U20IdMCa2RomFf0SHXVL6xuBxvxgvGyHTNSJHuE > bQP4RRBc6INt6f62jMnJ > =eIV+ > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > -- > The Mailing List for the Devon & Cornwall LUG > http://mailman.dclug.org.uk/listinfo/list > FAQ: http://www.dcglug.org.uk/linux_adm/list-faq.html > > -- The Mailing List for the Devon & Cornwall LUG http://mailman.dclug.org.uk/listinfo/list FAQ: http://www.dcglug.org.uk/linux_adm/list-faq.html