Re: [LUG] Free software and users

[Dave Trudgian <dave@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Neil Williams wrote:

> > It is not untrue... if you know anywhere that would have paid me to
> > write open source code for an intranet application that produced recipes
> >  for ceramic bodies to customer specifications, allowing comparison
> > with competitors prices, as open source I'd love to know about them!
>
> OK, you've got a small number of potential users there but this hasn't been a 
> problem before. There are plenty of SourceForge projects that have similar 
> niche sizes. I wouldn't dismiss it completely - every project has to start 
> somewhere. I apologise if you've thought of all this, but it doesn't hurt to 
> spell it out in case others are considering something similar:

Errr... you've got the wrong idea here really. I probably didn't make it 
too clear. I had no reason to write the software described other than I 
wanted to earn money to pay rent and that was what the company who 
employed me wanted me to write. I worked for a company who told me what 
to write and definitely wouldn't have entertained the idea of open 
source. I have my own interests in software which I do in my spare time.

<snip stuff about tools/backend/groups>

I am aware of the whole idea of looking into libraries etc. Certainly in 
my degree project I looked into it. Hopefully I will be able to work on 
my degree project a bit more and get it up on sourceforge etc. It's a 
spam filter with a different classification technique to (to my 
knowledge) all others out there.

> > Oh, 
> > they also use Microsoft software to do this.
>
>
> That's just a question of export/import filters. If the Microsoft program is 
> any good, it'll have a decent range and there may be a way of managing that.

I was forced to write in vbscript asp pages on IIS at the company.

> > I may be a fan of open 
> > source etc but where in St Austell was I going to earn enough money to
> > afford my rent by writing open source? Nobody would pay me to do it full
> > stop.
>
>
> Can you do what a lot of other developers do and do without deadlines and 
> fixed dates, do whatever you need to do for other paid employment and write 
> this in other time? It's not easy but not impossible either. If you start the 
> research and get something on a website like SourceForge you might be 
> surprised at how much interest / help could be available.

As I said, the project I mentioned was solely as part of paid 
employment... I was making the point that closed source benefited me 
above open source as a company employed me to write closed source and 
pay my rent. I would not have found anyone int St Austell to employ me 
to write open source. I have looked at sourceforge etc for my own projects.

> > Also, I am thinking in the present, of what is 
> > possible now, not what could be possible if comapnies beleived in the
> > ideas of the FSF.
>
>
> I'm fully aware of how lucky I am with my circumstances, but (and this isn't 
> meant to sound hard or elitist) I worked damn hard for my qualifications and 
> if they can fund something that actually interests me and benefits a lot of 
> other users, I count that as mitigation for a bad choice of career in the 
> sixth form.

I'm hopefully going to be lucky as I'm now studying for a PhD in 
Computer Science at Exeter University. I'm getting a studentship for it 
so I'm essentially paid. It is quite likely that some work may become 
open source, but it depends on the University's stance on things.

> > I have seen the publication to which you refer and it's something I find
> > perplexing. I admit I've not read it completely but some of the
> > arguments really didn't do it for me. Sorry I cant' give exact examples,
> > was a little while ago and I don't have time atm. Suffice to say it
> > didn't demolish my arguments in my mind.
>
>
> You're welcome to peruse it at your leisure. I'm not due to be working in St. 
> Austell for a while but we can probably sort something out. (I'll add it to 
> the library when I get half a chance - only bought it myself on Wednesday!)

I'm not actually in St Austell any more, that was my summer home when I 
used to live with parents. The job there was just in between BSc and 
PhD. I'm now living in centreal Exeter permanantly. Also, I'll probably 
review the book content on the web... have been looking at some of RMS's 
essays just now. I still don't agree with them but it's nice to read 
various different opinions.

> > Looking at the site, I remember "Why "Free Software" is Better Than
> > "Open Source"" well. I'm one who quite passionately beleives the
> > opposite
>
>
> I would think carefully about that. How are you going to protect your code for 
> future open source developers if your licence is not GPL compatible? If you 
> use a BSD style licence, you could find your code being lifted straight into 
> a proprietary product.

I've used a BSD license on the (rubbish) code that makes up my degree 
project. I'm perfectly happy for it to be put into a proprietary 
product. Maybe I'd feel differently about other code, but I'm happy with 
my choice.

> The question of free software and open source is more about the future than 
> the present. It considers the code from the stand point of the NEXT 
> generation of developers - if the code will be useful into the future, it is 
> selling the future short to fail to provide access to modified versions.
>
>
> > , and RMS's essays really get to me a bit. I much prefer Eric 
> > Raymond's pragmatic perspective on things and applaud his "Show them the
> > code! approach to getting people on board open source.
>
>
> That's fine as that intro, I'm just as concerned with what happens tomorrow.
>
> Licences are not an instant thing, the effect of copyleft and the GPL is FAR 
> more pervasive (as Microsoft acknowledge) and has benefits that some open 
> source proponents frankly don't seem to have considered

Like another poster, I don't think that Free software is going to 
disappear now. To me the GPL and copyleft are things that have cemented 
the basis of GNU/Linux and other open source software, for which I am 
grateful, but are not neccesarily suitable for all. I think more 
proprietary software on GNU/Linux is inevitable as the platform grows 
and gains user base. The proprietary software surely cannot take over 
from the GPL foundations though. It's just going to be a sprinkling of 
hundreds-and-thousands on the cake for some people who prefer more than 
just icing.






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