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Re: [LUG] Ubuntu

 

> On 28/09/2007, Mark Jose <kernowyon@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> Why such a downer on the Ubuntu distro?
> 
> 
> Because it is tested for 2-3 weeks.
> 
> It has its faults, but so do all the others.
> 
> 
> This is what testing is for, and that is why Debian usually ships with 0 rc
> bugs (I believe it showed as 35 last time due to some unpleasant
> statisticalisms.)
> 
> Unlike many of the "older" distros, it has done a lot - along with a
>> few others - to make Linux worth trying out for many people.
> 
> 
> I presume you are talking about Red Hat and Debian here.
> It is not Ubuntu that has made Linux worth trying out, but the software they
> package. The only innovation I can concede is a good idea that originally
> came from Ubuntu is update-manager, and tbh apt-cron does the same job a lot
> better.
> 
> Like many on this list, I was using Linux in the days when it really was
>> difficult to get
>> anything to work with the system.
> 
> 
> This predates Ubuntu by quite a lot. I think it was FC3 that was out when
> Ubuntu 4.07 was released? I can't vouch for the simultaneous Debian Stable,
> but I managed to get FC3 working very well without arsing about, so the
> notion that Ubuntu has made it not difficult to get anything to work, is
> simply incorrect. The improvement in usability since then is largely due to
> the GNOME people.
> 
> Although things have moved on dramatically, it is still a fairly scary
>> thought for many people to consider using Linux
> 
> 
> It is not a scary thought to consider using Linux, it is just a scary
> thought to not use Windows with its illusion of support. Of course, I would
> think it scary to consider using Mandrake or Ubuntu :)
> 
> hence the Ubuntu and other more user friendly distros.
> 
> 
> "User-friendly" is subjective. I must presume you are substituting
> "Windows-like" for people who are not you.
> 
> I can still operate a command line should I so desire (and do regularly),
>> but my chosen distro is
>> Kubuntu. Prior to that I was on the development team for another distro,
>> but
>> for my day to day use, I have Kubuntu.
>>
> Rather like Mandrake in the older days, it caters for those who prefer to
>> run
>>
> a system which includes many little extras to make things less hassle -
>> straight out of the box.
> 
> 
> Load up Debian Etch right now, and show me which of these "little extras"
> are not present there. Then tell me which of the remaining ones are not
> merely GUIs for the many Debian tools released over the past one and a half
> decades.
> 
> During my time using it, I have seen one problem - related to HAL.
> 
> 
> Even this morning, I see a blog post indicating that Ubuntu will most likely
> be shipping with an incredibly broken window manager by default (unless, of
> course, Canonical magically patch and thoroughly test Compiz within "2-3
> weeks". There are numerous issues in previous releases that were not fixed
> due to this stupid deadline thing.
> 
> Nothing terribly drastic, but a small issue. I have seen small issues on my
>> Debian box too, so it hardly makes the Ubuntu family stand out as some sort
>> of unstable distro in my view - and I use my systems (of which I have
>> several) daily, all day (and night in some cases).
> 
> 
> OK, yep, fine. Stability-wise, I can't vouch for the latest release. But
> anything based directly on 6 months' patching and "2-3 weeks"' worth of
> testing Debian Unstable can hardly win any awards on this front.
> 
> Running the very latest release will put you in a slightly more
>> "exploratory" position, as does running Deb unstable sometimes.
> 
> 
> No! Running the stable release is equivalent to running Sid, albeit a
> patched copy. God only knows what the development release is like - oh, no,
> wait, I know what the development release is like: hideously unstable,
> doesn't boot from day to day, completely hoses on occasion, upgrade path
> completely bollocksed.
> 
> But all the main issues should be ironed out on release - they have a pretty
>> big dev team and lots of testers.
> 
> 
> Lots of testers is irrelevant when you only give them a couple of weeks.
> Besides, there is no goal to actually fix any of the bugs, merely to find
> some during the testing period.
> 
> If you want stability, you pick 6.06
> 
> 
> - I'd like to interject here that 6.06 is still based on Debian Unstable,
> and was tested for only an additional two months which is still usually a
> fraction of the time used for a proper server OS such as RHEL or, oh, let's
> say Debian -
> 
> , if you fancy looking at the new goodies, you pick the current release
> 
> 
> - thus giving you a completely unusable window manager and proprietary
> drivers enabled, it seems, by default -
> 
> and if you want to take a chance, you can run a testing release - exactly
>> like Debian
> 
> 
> Wrong again. Everything in Debian Testing has been tested for at least ten
> days per package before entering Testing. Running the "testing" release, as
> you call it, of Ubuntu is more like Experimental or perhaps the early
> Windows XP betas.
> 
> {snip}
> knocking other distros for petty points scoring for distroX is detrimental
>> to Linux as a whole.
> 
> 
> No, it is not. The very existence of the inferior distributions is affecting
> Linux as a whole by stealing developer time to work on useless/duplicate
> code. The fact that some of us recommend one distro while others recommend
> another makes no difference to the quality of the software, especially since
> nearly everyone capable of learning will eventually graduate to
> Debian/Fedora/Gentoo in any case (or will make an informed decision about
> whether to use Arch or something) but will certainly not stick with the most
> Windowsy thing that they saw on their first day trying to figure out what
> the hell /var is for.
> 
> I shall continue to use whichever distro suits my needs, as I have done
>> since I started using Linux. I do not knock others, even if I see things
>> which I consider strange or odd.
> 
> 
> Why? If you see something that looks like crap, it may be that the developer
> isn't aware of this deficiency. Tell him about it! That way you are helping
> the software to improve. It's called a bug report. Bug #1 in Ubuntu is a
> rather famous example of an unconventional bug.
> 
> 
>> This list is becoming a Debian/FSF fanclub, rather than a LUG one.
> 
> 
> There's not much practical difference between the "big three" distros on
> here, so it's more like a Debian/RH/Gentoo fanclub, and there are certainly
> many people using other distros. It is certainly of interest to note that
> only one person to my knowledge was not using Debian at the barbecue in
> August. Oh, and since the FSF wrote the licenses that make all of this
> possible (or at least that people prefer to use) and they also write most of
> the software, it's difficult to not be a fan of the FSF if you actually like
> GNU/Linux, since most of the work is done by FSF-style people and not
> OSS-style people.
> 
> Oh, and I believe that Register comment refers exclusively to {12-year-old
> American male}-types who say things like "lol hax" in real life, and are
> attracted (in a PC-World-advert-style manner) to the system offering the
> shiniest graphics, since only they refer to Linux in such a manner. Methinks
> the only "best thing since sliced bread" thing being referred to there is
> Compiz... sod the stability, reliability, development openness, software
> variety, developer multiculturalism, the promotion of socially beneficial
> cultural change, and of course the FREEDOM, so long as we can have our
> spinning cube!


Sorry folks, You lose the plot.
For they that GNU/Linux use and understand, they can interrogate and find what 
suits their style.

To new users , and I mean new users who are the only way a life  system or 
software develops; they  must be introduced to a usable GNU/Linux; Ubuntu 
upgrade manager was  'usable' compared with the problems of SuSE 10.1. So for 
introducing folk to GNU/Linux I use basic SLAX as a live disc (very improbable 
to destroy their current MS Windows), Ubuntu when they know not to click 
"install button" and the easy upgrade manager and  software add to / remove 
from manager allows them  to overcome 'fear' of system upgrade; without  such 
fear disappearing, the GNU/Linux systems will forever remain a *minority 
interest*.
The install button and presence of partitioning  programs within Ubuntu [and 
most  big distributions] prohibits it being used in school systems where any 
CD must *not*  install to or *be capable of installing to* the desktop system 
by regulation. This loses many new  users as it cannot be introduced to them 
at formative IT ages on  School MS OSs.

Then when a newbie is slightly competent I introduce them to Knoppix to solve 
the problems of recovering MS Windows data when MS Windows does not boot.

There are many stages to all life and  understanding. You don't become an 
expert user of any system without  first going through the initial stages and 
that  sometimes settles your life and software choices and early exposure to a 
single system settles the matter for most folk.
eionmac


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