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As a newbie, I heartily agree with Tom. I just want to do my stuff, without hassle and in a free environment unhindered by Windoze strictures. However, I do understand the strength of the opinions being expressed and that you all have the future of Linux in mind. I just think this thread is so negative and ultimately damaging to your chances of involving Mac & Windoze users in Open Source software. I do understand that promoting the proprietary is bad news for the free alternative, but this discussion going nowhere, the two sides are too entrenched. Don't we have enough opposing forces without friction within the faithful. Maybe off list would be an option? or posssibly at an informal meeting. I hope I haven't overstepped the mark, or offended anyone BTW. if Ubuntu is frowned upon, what is suggested for newbies?. Clare -- The Mailing List for the Devon & Cornwall LUG http://mailman.dclug.org.uk/listinfo/list FAQ: http://www.dcglug.org.uk/linux_adm/list-faq.html