D&C GLug - Home Page

[ Date Index ] [ Thread Index ] [ <= Previous by date / thread ] [ Next by date / thread => ]

Re: Backing GNU to the hilt (was Re: [LUG] Waiting for keyboard input in a shell script)

 

On 30/11/05, Neil Williams <linux@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> That and the lack of non-free on that machine is good news. I was getting
> seriously worried about your free software usage!

Oh, don't worry too much about me... I'm off to MIT in January to get
involved in the GPLv3 process.

> Sounds like a unique opportunity to me. I'll talk about freedom to anyone who
> asks. If it's relevant to that individual, I'll tell them all they want to
> know. Don't be shy about your allegiance. People value honesty and if they
> discover some time later that you have different priorities, they can be
> unimpressed. If they know up-front and have the opportunity to get (logical,
> sensible, robust) answers to all their questions, you earn their respect.
> Respect goes a long, long way in customer and community relations.

This is something we're very keen to explore, however...

> Fine - no reason for you to have your own music for your own listening in a
> work-related format, especially when ogg players are available for your work
> machine, should you have time to play them at work.

> See, that's my problem here. Work is fine and if you really want to listen to
> work related music that is already in mp3, that's bearable. (Especially if
> you don't have access to the original media.) But your own files, to me,
> should reflect your true beliefs. It's about carrying through with your
> personality.

I have a lot of MP3 though, the majority of which are CNUK related. Of
course, I have a lot of music from way way back in MP3, but until
either the iPod can support OGG (not unrealistic, GNU/Linux for the
iPod is coming along) and MP3, I'm a little stuck, as I need to be
able to carry my work around with me, and I really can't afford to buy
a new player.

> Newflash. We have no marketing, we have no brand.

> I want to talk about freedom, I want permanence, durability, choice,
> alternatives, flexibility. I want people to use the freedoms that they have
> been granted. I want users to have the understanding and knowledge to
> contribute. I want ALL users to understand WHY GNU/Linux exists, what it
> does, what it means to them and what they need to do to ensure if continues.

> Freedom involves responsibility and accountability. No one is free if the
> expression of that freedom reduces the freedom of others. To be free, we have
> a responsibility to ensure our freedoms are maintained for those who follow
> and for those around us now.

> Linux(TM) is unimportant. GNU is what matters and it matters most in the minds
> of individuals, not the soundbites of the masses.

> Because these topics are not deemed suitable for mainstream news - these are
> interpersonal issues, ideological issues. These things don't convert easily
> into soundbites and press releases. It's hard and all the more reason for us
> to support those organisations that make such an effort - like FFII, FSF etc.

I agree with all this. However...

> That is not what matters. You're following the publicity-mad crowd and not
> engaging your brain. Gloss doesn't matter, the outward appearance is not the
> principle motivation. You've put form above function - as Mac users often do.

Unfortunately, the people I'm most likely to convert to using
GNU/Linux are the people who we do need to target with an attractive
website, better communication and more public awareness. GNU right
now, is a pretty attractive thing for hackers, but for artists, they
don't get it, and if they stumble across the GNU website right now, it
looks bad.

> The reasons behind GNU are more important than the appearance of GNU.

Agreed.

> Those who cannot see past the exterior are not going to want to engage their
> brain either, let's talk to those who are ready to listen.

I think free software is not such a difficult concept to explain, but
if we want people to use free software, free software needs to be able
to show these people they can get their work done with free software,
it doesn't need to be perfect, but it needs to be vaguely visible.
GNOME does a much better job than the rest of the GNU project with
this.

> Put away the cosmetic view of the 'modern' media and look again at what lies
> beneath. This is the key to our whole discussion - each time we've disagreed
> it has been because cosmetic appearance or self-interest have overridden the
> needs of the community.

But cosmetic appearance, or rather, usability does matter. The people
I want to get using more free software, the people I want to use
GNU/Linux, won't use it until they can see things in a better light.
This is one of the things that CNUK will be doing.

> Sorry, slapping a 'modern' look over the fsf website is, to me, not forward
> thinking at all. It's pandering to the perceptions of the masses, instead of
> engaging with the individual.

Let's pander to the masses and they just might start to get it.

> We need to work with people, one to one. It may be slower but it is also more
> sustainable, more personal and more supportive.

We do, yes. This is something we're doing with CNUK... but having a
great resource you can show people, that looks good and feels good, is
important and useful too.

> Spontaneously converting the world to Debian in some massive publicity blitz
> would simply leave a mass of disillusioned people.

Right now, yes it would... but I don't believe such things are totally
impossible.

> The community needs to grow gradually or the support and development will
> disappoint the new users. In a sense, Mandrake learnt that lesson the hard
> way by trying to grow too quickly.

I don't know the Mandrake story, but you make a good point here.

> We don't have the resources to support a massive influx - we need to absorb
> new users gradually so that they have time, like us, to develop and take on
> their own roles within the community. As the new users become new
> contributors, so we can support more new users but the two MUST be kept in
> balance. Right now, users outstrip developers and this is simply
> unsustainable.

Let's come up with a list of the next group of people we want to
attract. Right now, there are a growing group of people, wanting to
make and remix free culture (Creative Commons BY-SA is pretty close to
the GPL), and they're doing it largely on Macs with non-free software.
Do we want them? I do.

> It's taken me six years to get from newbie Mandrake user to prospective Debian
> developer. Some will take longer, some less. Some will simply be happy to be
> a competent user - the critical message is that competent users ALSO
> contribute, simply by being on mailing lists like this to answer queries that
> would otherwise take up the time of people who could be developing new code!

I think mailing lists are not a great way to deal with the problem.
They are good for intermediate users, but for proper newbies...
websites, with good, quality, up to date documentation is far better.

> I find it hard to see how you reconcile that with your view about Lynx users.
> Lynx is an important accessibility tool because it gives people like us the
> ability to get just a taste of how text-to-speech browsers and other
> specialised kit really works. We are not die-hards, lynx users represent a
> valuable accessibility test set. Accessibility is not just replacing tables
> with CSS - I know you realise this but sometimes your statements don't bear
> it out.

Lynx is a great tool. Accessibility is just making websites for
everyone, and the way to do that is with web standards. XHTML and CSS
are two of these technologies, and marking up pages with semantic
markup is the most important of these.

> Maybe they weren't objecting to the replacement of tables but the motivation
> behind the changes.

Maybe. They brought me on *for* accessibility, and then everything I
suggested was vetoed, because the chief webmaster at the time was far
more concerned with Netscape 4 users than supporting standards.

> Oh Matt. Is there any hope? Modern day is a pointless goal. The definition
> changes with each change in the direction of the wind.
>
> If people get the impression that free software is always pandering to some
> notion of 'modern day', they will miss the durability and permanence of the
> message.

Communication is a powerful tool, and we have the power to promote the
notions of our community to a wider audience if we embrace the notions
of good design and style.

> Please do.

I'll get a page up on the CNUK wiki. You can get involved then.

Again, another long email.. I don't think we've really got anything
other than a different outlook on the community. You're writing code,
that's great. I'm creating web applications and trying to promote
freedom (software and culture) to artists.

matt

--
Matt Lee
CNUK Media Foundation

--
The Mailing List for the Devon & Cornwall LUG
Mail majordomo@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with "unsubscribe list" in the
message body to unsubscribe. FAQ: www.dcglug.org.uk/linux_adm/list-faq.html