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Re: [LUG] today's meets and some observations etc.



On Saturday 25 September 2004 8:13 pm, john wrote:
2. This was a Debian masterclass meeting,

Oh come off it, it was nowhere near anything even approaching a
masterclass...

I can't help that, however, that was the intention of the threads that started 
the meeting. How it turns out is less predictable. This is no committee 
operation, no corporate conference or military campaign. It's a bunch of 
friends getting to know each other by doing what they do best - sometimes 
hacking, sometimes showing off, sometimes making a show.

mmm, there was nothing said that went over my head, and I am not a coder,

but not a newbie either. How many 'Windows-only' users would have followed the 
discussion?

I was not attempting to blame anyone for anything, I was attempting to make
a point, moreover a point that I think would be relevant to a Linux User
Group's members enthusiasms and ambitions for their OS of choice.

Of course it's relevant - we've had meetings like the type you may prefer and 
we'll have them again. Just as soon as someone volunteers to organise it.

However, do allow time - polished performances and liveCD's take time to
prepare. Technical wizzo is much less work because it's what most of the
people attending such a meeting are doing 24/7.

You deny my point, and then make it for me perfectly with this very
paragraph. Live-cd's and introducing them to people is little or no effort.

?? Of course they do. We can throw a hacking network together between 
ourselves, but as the August meeting showed, we tend to spend the first few 
hours just getting everything working (because we each have such disparate 
needs for our own network services at home). Great fun that it is, it isn't 
the stuff of a polished presentation. Those things need to be agreed and done 
in advance. Which services are we going to use? Which internet services will 
we need? What does the firewall need to allow/deny? Who will allocate the IP 
addresses and who needs which service? Live CD's need duplicating (not 
running them off ad-hoc), a decent 'show' needs preparation, publicity, 
materials and other bits - like the Expo in Olympia. When we've done things 
like that on a far smaller scale in the past, we've still needed to 
arrange/borrow projectors, network connections, spare terminals, equipment 
that is pre-configured etc. It doesn't impress the Windoze-ites if we can't 
show something that works out of the box - trouble is, when it works out of 
the box it's boring!!!!

Did you choose to not have MS-DOS around?

yes I did as a matter of fact,

Personally, the first thing I do when I am called to fix a Windows box is hack 
a DOS command line. It's the only way to get decent control over the system - 
that and regedit. I only ever use Windows at work now (non-IT) and there 
isn't time for anything else. Just get into DOS, fix the problem and carry 
on.

Or to have IE thunking
into 16bit code to release yet another vulnerability?
yes again.

Uhh, do you want to check that? You wanted to encourage vulnerabilities in IE?
(Note the lack of a negative in my original - I wasn't saying that you chose 
not to have IE thunking 16bit code, I was asking if you like it thunking into 
16bit?)

Book the venue, propose a theme and we'll change the format, it really is
that simple.

venue isn't a problem
(obviously all concerned would need some advance warning)

Great, set a date and a topic and let's get it done. I'm all for as many 
meetings as possible (we've been a little behind in the meeting stakes 
recently and I've had a massive workload of C to plough through so haven't 
been able to do much on the LUG either.)

It was only a week or so ago that someone was commenting on how quiet the list 
had become. I've now got a break in my C project and I will be returning my 
attention to the DCLUG website - that's my role. I'll do what I can to 
support all the aims of the group within an environment of chit-chat, techo 
babble, humour and exasperation. We were all newbies once but to keep the 
entire group interested, there MUST be content for those who have complex or 
specialised needs as well as expounding the benefits of free software to all 
and sundry. We must retain all interests, not pander to one.

That is why I keep talking about previous meetings - you seem to be basing a 
lot on the one meeting. From my perspective, the variety of meetings is in 
line with the composition of the group and we do not concentrate on any one 
area. Individual meetings benefit from a single focus but different meetings 
cover VERY different areas. Yes, we need a few welcome meetings at the moment 
- but that doesn't mean we can't do them, won't do them or refuse to help 
those who would benefit from alternative meeting formats. Please, go ahead 
and book the meeting you want - the more the better.

theme is probably obvious from my previous email, evangelising windows
users by giving them a linux solution on the day.

OK. The pages in the members area can help you put the meeting together, let 
everyone know using those and the mailing list and let's get another meeting 
rolling.

Well, that's it, rant over.

More of a troll really.

ah yes, the "anything that does not conform to my opinion must by
definition be a troll" response.

Not at all, it's when a rant covers old ground without signs of anything new.

Clearly, many would be offended by your offensive language - otherwise
you wouldn't have used the words you used.

oh come on for ***** sake, you hear worse at 7pm on the telly or in a
primary school playground,

This is a public archive - it does nobody any good to have discussions that 
follow such a pattern.

If this was a 'SoftwareFreedomDay event or LinuxInstallDay, maybe a Let's
Start You in GNU/Linux day, perhaps a Come and See GNU/Linux day' then
fine, you could expect live CD's and lots of handouts. We've done that.
This meeting was the other kind - technical stuff for those who do the
technical work.

I must disagree, there was no discussion on running your own inn server and
tweaking the spools to fit on x size disk while maximising performance is y
areas, there was no discussion on jpeg exploits, there was no discussion on
tweaking your network to cope with malformed windows tcp/ip packets,

If you want to look at that, we can. There are a whole load of technical areas 
that we could cover. From your own perspective, I would recommend that the 
meeting is one or the other - by all means let's have two meetings, one 
'welcome mat' and one techie.

what 
there was was what there has always been at these things, geeks geeking out
and "hacking for the hell of it",

Can't we have a little fun together sometimes?? I like all that stuff, it's 
great to meet others, get to know what other members can do, what they know, 
who is the best person to ask when something crops up later.

We can't afford to get stuck in any rut - all welcome and no depth is as bad 
as all gabble and no introductions.

There is no point in every meeting being a welcome mat format. Just as there 
is no point in every meeting being a mega-hack session. We don't do that - 
there are a variety of meetings, a variety of topics and a generally relaxed 
and mellow attitude to what actually gets done.

We just 'throw it together' for most meetings and it works well. When we want 
to make a show of something and do something that would catch the eye of the 
non-technical people, often those outside the immediate group, we can and we 
do.

Actually, there have been quite a few meetings that have accomplished NOTHING 
of the original plan! Some of those have been noted by the attendees as the 
most successful meetings they had attended!

So, please, chill out, relax and let's have the meeting you want. As long as 
we can still have more meetings like the last one as well.

No, this stays on-list.

do you have a mandate to speak for everyone else?

?? My reply - my decision where it goes ??
(You could have replied off list if you wanted to)

Admittedly my language was a bit colourful,

http://www.dclug.org.uk/wiki/?id=email+etiquette

It's not a case of minors, it's a case of a public archive.

but it was hardly extreme, however your (valid) point was taken and as you
can see I have made the effort to ensure that there is a vulgarity filter
in place now between my brain and the keyboard.

Thank you. It is appreciated.

Let me ask you a question, and it is a serious question.

Do you feel that the main purpose of the LUGs is to provide a meeting place
for deep geeks to hack? Or do you feel that the main purpose is to promote
the use of Linux?

Why must anyone choose? It's both and more.

GNU/Linux is all about choice and freedom. Let's do more, not restrict 
anything to preconceptions.

If it is the former (then LUG's have evolved over the years) then I must
bid a graceful adieu to the DCLUG, for it will be utterly irellevant to me.

It will never be one without the other, both are required for such a disparate 
and geographically distributed group to remain functional.

-- 

Neil Williams
=============
http://www.codehelp.co.uk/
http://www.dclug.org.uk/
http://www.isbn.org.uk/
http://sourceforge.net/projects/isbnsearch/

http://www.biglumber.com/x/web?qs=0x8801094A28BCB3E3

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